21 replies to this topic

[godzilladude]

Links over at The Cimmerian. Interesting stuff, and not much really I could argue with.

www.thecimmerian.com.

[Scott Oden]

Makes me proud to be an Alabamian (Auburn is the "other" great university in the state -- the rivalry twixt AU and UA is legendary, culminating in the annual Iron Bowl).

Best,

Scott

[Taranaich]

Quite a fascinating essay here, regarding Howard's fascination with Picts.

Now, first of all, I am thrilled to see Howard's philosophy discussed in such a thoughtful manner by someone like Long. Although I have problems with some of the things he says, the fact that he's deeming Howard worthy of such examination is a great, great thing for which he should be commended most highly. In particular, I am impressed by the amount of research he did, and the respect he treats Howard with.

However, what kind of a nerd would I be if I didn't challenge a few of his points? Such is the nature of discussion.

There are two kinds of ?savage? or ?barbarian? in Robert E. Howard?s fiction. On the one hand we have the good savage ? fierce, spontaneous, self-sufficient, honourable, and free from the weakness, hypocrisy, decadence, and over-intellectuality of civilised humanity. On the other hand we have the bad savage ? subhuman, duplicitous, creepy, a slithering lurker in darkness, the primordial ?other.? The good savage?s straightforwardness is frequently contrasted with the craftiness and duplicity of urban civilisation; the bad savage, by contrast, is cunning and secretive, anything but straightforward. One is like a swordthrust in broad daylight; the other is like a garrote in the dark.

Personally, I think that Long is making a decision, when it's more "two sides of the one coin". Conan at his best can be fierce, spontaneous, self-sufficient, honourable and free of civilized trappings. However, there are also examples of Conan being viewed as subhuman, duplicitous, creepy and "other". As Long goes on to say, he treats the Picts as both "good savage" and "bad savage" depending on the story - sometimes in the same story.

For arguments over the extent of Howard?s racism, see Joe Marek (scroll to the bottom) on one side and Gary Romeo on the other; what Marek and Romeo between them succeed in showing ? if it needed showing ? is that severely racist elements in Howard?s thought coexisted with genuinely antiracist elements.

This is a VASTLY important, and very potent, statement. Without getting into another "racism" tangent, the fact that Howard's writings contain both racist AND anti-racist sentiments is an important thing to remember whenever that aspect rears its ugly head (preferably on sites that don't already have multi-page threads on the topic).

He also wrote this interesting essay on Howard's Warrior Women.

Robert E. Howard was certainly no feminist; women in his stories exist mainly to be rescued or to be ravished, or both (and often both by the hero). But toward the end of his writing career he experimented more and more frequently with increasingly strong and independent female heroines.

Although a lot of Howard's chicks DO serve the narrative purpose of "rescuee" as per the market for which he wrote, it's a shame he neglects to mention a few other women, who while not warriors, are powerful and interesting in other ways.

Many of Howard's female villains are in charge: rather than make them fawning acolytes of a Dark Lord, they ARE the Dark Lord. Salome goes from a woman cast out to die by virtue of her Mark, but comes back to take charge of a kingdom, dominating all men in her charge. Tascela's the real power of Xuchotl, Thalis is the only Xuthallan who has any clue of her situation and surroundings, to say nothing of powerful women outside the Conan tales like Nakari of Negari and Brunhild of Bal-Sagoth.

And what of women who aren't in a position of particular power, but are nonetheless fascinating without sticking to either the powerful/powerless paradigm? Wise Zelata the wild woman, repulsive Atla the witch-woman, tragic Moira of the Dalcassians, doomed Eevin of the Picts. And what of Zenobia, who saves CONAN'S skin using only her wits and ingenuity?

Sure, Belit, Valeria, Sonya and Agnes are important and great characters, but they're not the only examples of strong female characters in Howard's repertoire. Making a feminist character does not necessarily mean sticking a sword in their hand.

[amster]

I agree with his last paragraph. It would be nice if someone (Del Rey perhaps) collected all of REH's woman warrior tales into a single volume. You never know, they might pick up a few more female REH fans.

[Taranaich]

No disagreement there, I'd buy that in a heartbeat!

There are quite a stories with women in a prominent role that would be great to have collected together.

Essential stories:

The Dark Agnes tales & fragment - Obviously!
"Shadow of the Vulture" - Again, obviously.
"Red Nails" - A no-brainer with Valeria & Tascela at the forefront of the story.
"Queen of the Black Coast" - another no-brainer with one of Howard's most famous females.

Other tales:

"The Black Stranger" - Belesa & Tina probably have more "screen-time" than Conan himself, making it an interesting choice for the point-of-view character.
"A Witch Shall Be Born" - Salome & Taramis are arguably the two most important characters in the tale.
"The Moon of Skulls" - Nakari makes a nice contrast to Marylin.
"Gods of Bal-Sagoth" - Brunhild is from the Nakari school of "Woman in Charge", but being deposed at the start of the story makes her adventure different from the more traditional villainesses.
"People of the Black Circle" - Yasmina is probably the least wimpy of the "rescuees", and has a good character arc too, plus it would be appropriate to acknowledge that Howard could make a damsel-in-distress a workable, interesting character.

I'm not quite up on Howard's westerns, comedies & boxers, but I'm sure there are some good women in those tales, as well as a few I'm forgetting from the weird fiction/historical aspect.

[deuce]

Greetings!


Taranaich,that was a excellent post!And while I applude Mr. Lord for his efforts.I wonder how far he digged.

Robert E. Howard was certainly no feminist; women in his stories exist mainly to be rescued or to be ravished, or both (and often both by the hero). But toward the end of his writing career he experimented more and more frequently with increasingly strong and independent female heroines.

Maybe it is way he wrote the above,because I get the feeling he is saying that REH,was no feminist(that term didn't exist in the 30's).Maybe in certain stories this may be true,to a certain extent.One, only has to read his letter to Harold Preece,ca December 1928,to understand his view of women,as writers,poets,rulers,philosophers,pioneers,...warriors.

Tu

Well, I think that Long has dug far deeper than your average, professorial, tenured, philosophical bear. The fact that Long doesn't own(?) the "Complete (or "Selected") Letters" doesn't negate the fact that most of REH's "strong women" are featured in yarns he wrote in the 30's (for whatever reason).

But yeah, I think his "ravished (or both)" comment could use some adjustment.

[Rusty Burke]

There are quite a stories with women in a prominent role that would be great to have collected together.

I'm surprised that I so rarely see another woman "warrior" mentioned -- though in truth she doesn't get a lot of "screen time": Tarala of Britain, in "Swords of the Northern Sea." I'd include it in a collection of strong women characters.

You're also overlooking "The Isle of Pirates' Doom," with Helen Tavrel.

Rusty

[Taranaich]

Well, I think that Long has dug far deeper than your average, professorial, tenured, philosophical bear. The fact that Long doesn't own(?) the "Complete (or "Selected") Letters" doesn't negate the fact that most of REH's "strong women" are featured in yarns he wrote in the 30's (for whatever reason).

But yeah, I think his "ravished (or both)" comment could use some adjustment.

I agree, Long has proven himself as having dug pretty darn deep. I'm infinitely impressed he doesn't fall for the pitfalls other commentators have fallen prey to (MATTPOP, Oedipus, town gossip etc), so when he says something like "women in his stories exist mainly to be rescued or to be ravished, or both", it just stands out all the more. But it's still a damn sight better than most attempts from outside the Inner Circle of REH scholars. I hope he continues to study REH and post his opinions, since he's shown that they're interesting and insightful.

I'm surprised that I so rarely see another woman "warrior" mentioned -- though in truth she doesn't get a lot of "screen time": Tarala of Britain, in "Swords of the Northern Sea." I'd include it in a collection of strong women characters.

You're also overlooking "The Isle of Pirates' Doom," with Helen Tavrel.

Argh, I knew there were a few others I forgot! Yes, they'd certainly be great to include in a collection, I loved Tarala. I feel like a dunderhead for not including Helen since Long wrote about him in the essay itself! *facepalm*

There's also the enigmatic "Black Margot" mentioned in one of the Dark Agnes tales, who was another woman warrior who died before Agnes became a soldier: "one of a kind", I think she was called. I found it fascinating that when people doubt Agnes, it isn't always because she's a woman, but because "she's no Black Margot"!

[amster]

There are quite a stories with women in a prominent role that would be great to have collected together.

I'm surprised that I so rarely see another woman "warrior" mentioned -- though in truth she doesn't get a lot of "screen time": Tarala of Britain, in "Swords of the Northern Sea." I'd include it in a collection of strong women characters.

You're also overlooking "The Isle of Pirates' Doom," with Helen Tavrel.

Rusty

What about "The She Devil", which you mentioned on another thread? I've never read it, but the title and the cover art suggests a strong female character, somewhat reminiscent of Belit IMO.

[Rusty Burke]

What about "The She Devil", which you mentioned on another thread? I've never read it, but the title and the cover art suggests a strong female character, somewhat reminiscent of Belit IMO.

Not unless you think Sancha, in "The Pool of the Black One," was a "strong female character." In fact, the two stories are remarkably similar.

Rusty

[amster]

What about "The She Devil", which you mentioned on another thread? I've never read it, but the title and the cover art suggests a strong female character, somewhat reminiscent of Belit IMO.

Not unless you think Sancha, in "The Pool of the Black One," was a "strong female character." In fact, the two stories are remarkably similar.

Rusty

Wow, that's too bad. I guess you can't always judge a book by its cover.

[Taranaich]

Not unless you think Sancha, in "The Pool of the Black One," was a "strong female character." In fact, the two stories are remarkably similar.

I wouldn't count Sancha as one of the finest Howard or even Conan heroines, but she seems to be in that middle-ground between "strongly-written heroines" (Zenobia, Yasmina, Valeria) and "pulp cheesecake"(Olivia, Muriela, Natala), where she shows a few flashes of ingenuity and helpfulness in between her annoying habit of getting captured and fawning over Our Man from Cimmeria. Not that she should really be included in an REH Heroines collection anyway...

[amster]

What about "The She Devil", which you mentioned on another thread? I've never read it, but the title and the cover art suggests a strong female character, somewhat reminiscent of Belit IMO.

Not unless you think Sancha, in "The Pool of the Black One," was a "strong female character." In fact, the two stories are remarkably similar.

Rusty

I picked up a used copy on Alibris; definately not REH's finest hour, but "She Devil" was an enjoyable 20 minutes. Raquel O'Shane was a far sluttier and bitchier version of Sancha, and both the cover art and the description on the back are very deceptive. She's certainly not a role model like Red Sonya or Dark Agnes. In fact, she's about every bad cliche rolled into one.

On the other hand, I found the story refreshing in a way. As I pointed out on the HotD thread, REH had a tendency to make his female characters intially appear slutty, describing their ample charms (which they made absolutely no effort to conceal) in great detail. Then he would reveal that they were in fact rather virtuous in nature. "She Devil" pulls no such punches. In this case, what you see is what you get.

I'm curious to find out how good the other Wild Bill Clanton stories are.

Edited by amsterdamaged, 31 August 2008 - 05:17 PM.

[deuce]

Dr. RT Long has more to say on Howard:

http://aaeblog.com/2...his-axe-i-edit/

[BarB]

Deuce,
Thanks for the heads up on this article. It is VERY interesting reading especially from the point of view of a writer. Dr. Long gave me added insight into the process of writing, not only that of REH but gives some good pointers for my own creative efforts. Perhaps he should be teaching creative writing in addition to his philosophy of law class. He makes additional comments about "By This Axe I Rule" after the article that make me wish I could take his philosophy class. I even checked out the location of Auburn University.

Thanks again, Deuce,
BB

[deuce]

Deuce,
Thanks for the heads up on this article. It is VERY interesting reading especially from the point of view of a writer. Dr. Long gave me added insight into the process of writing, not only that of REH but gives some good pointers for my own creative efforts. Perhaps he should be teaching creative writing in addition to his philosophy of law class. He makes additional comments about "By This Axe I Rule" after the article that make me wish I could take his philosophy class. I even checked out the location of Auburn University.

Thanks again, Deuce,
BB

No problem! Good to see ya back on the forum Barbara.

[Haemogoblin]

Damn, this forum is great I've been familiar with Long for several years now, and still had no idea he had ever written about Howard. Another blow struck for REH!

Previous links were broken for me. Here's the posts' new addresses:
http://aaeblog.com/2...icts-to-depict/
http://aaeblog.com/2...to-broadswords/

[BarB]

HG:
Thanks for the links. Both were very interesting articles. In his blog "He Picked Picts to Depict," Long mentions a link to articles on the issue of racism posted by Joe Maraek on one side and Gary Romeo on the other. I've read Gary's essay. Does anyone have the link to the one by Marek? I'd like to read that also.

Thansk for the heads up on this HG.
BB