[deuce]

PFunkJAzz, on Dec 7 2008, 12:54 AM, said:

brakkk60526, on Dec 4 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

Read issue 2 today and really liked it. Conrad is really coming through.

Yeah good narrative flow.
Really dug Picts portrayed as more African looking instead just brutish lo-brow savages.
Just freaked I gotta wait a whole month for more of Brule.

Why should the Picts be "more African looking"? I assume you mean "sub-Saharan African", not "North African" (REH places the Picts in North Africa and Europe during the Stone Age). Any depiction of Picts (any time before, say, 2000BC) as being "lo-brow savages" goes directly against everything Howard ever said about the "First Race". They're definitely "savages" during the Hyborian Age, but not "low-brow" or "apish" in any way. All of that happened after the Indo-Europeans invaded Europe in the Bronze Age (according to REH). In the Thurian Age, the Picts were very high-level barbarians, apparently possessing advanced metallurgy and capable of trans-oceanic voyages. Their services were courted by the most powerful Thurian nation (Valusia). Howard gives no hint of the Picts being analogous to his conception of (sub-Saharan) Africans. If anything, they are depicted more as sea-going Comanches (if such a thing can be envisioned) with iron/steel swords.

[Fernando]

deuce, on Dec 7 2008, 01:24 AM, said:

PFunkJAzz, on Dec 7 2008, 12:54 AM, said:

brakkk60526, on Dec 4 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

Read issue 2 today and really liked it. Conrad is really coming through.

Yeah good narrative flow.
Really dug Picts portrayed as more African looking instead just brutish lo-brow savages.
Just freaked I gotta wait a whole month for more of Brule.

Why should the Picts be "more African looking"? I assume you mean "sub-Saharan African", not "North African" (REH places the Picts in North Africa and Europe during the Stone Age). Any depiction of Picts (any time before, say, 2000BC) as being "lo-brow savages" goes directly against everything Howard ever said about the "First Race". They're definitely "savages" during the Hyborian Age, but not "low-brow" or "apish" in any way. All of that happened after the Indo-Europeans invaded Europe in the Bronze Age (according to REH). In the Thurian Age, the Picts were very high-level barbarians, apparently possessing advanced metallurgy and capable of trans-oceanic voyages. Their services were courted by the most powerful Thurian nation (Valusia). Howard gives no hint of the Picts being analogous to his conception of (sub-Saharan) Africans.

Very well said, Deuce! I agree 100% with your comments above. But, as for your comment below...

Quote

If anything, they are depicted more as sea-going Comanches (if such a thing can be envisioned) with iron/steel swords.

Here's a Comanche's pic I've found in the Net:




And here are some REH's depictions of Picts:

Beyond the Black River:

Quote

The Picts were a white race, though swarthy, but the border men never spoke of them as such.

Wolves Beyond the Border, Draft A:
The Picts are a white race too, in that they are not black nor brown nor yellow, but they are black-eyed and black-haired and dark of skin, and neither they nor the Socandagas are spoken of as “white” by the people of Westermarck, who only designate thus a man of Hyborian blood.

Wolves Beyond the Border, Draft B:
The Picts are a white race too, in that they are not black nor brown nor yellow, but they are black-eyed and black-haired and dark of skin, and neither they nor the Ligureans are spoken of as “white” by the people of Westermarck, who only designate thus a man of Hyborian blood.

The Valley of the Worm:
These people came forth to dispute our way short, strongly built men, black-haired, painted, ferocious, but indisputably white men. We knew their breed of old. They were Picts, and of all alien races the fiercest.

And, as we know very well, everytime REH speaks of "white race" or "white men" (as written in TVotW), he means straight-haired, thin-nosed, thin-liped and wide-eyed people - and not about Amerindian-like men.

[PFunkJAzz]

deuce, on Dec 6 2008, 03:24 PM, said:

PFunkJAzz, on Dec 7 2008, 12:54 AM, said:

brakkk60526, on Dec 4 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

Read issue 2 today and really liked it. Conrad is really coming through.

Yeah good narrative flow.
Really dug Picts portrayed as more African looking instead just brutish lo-brow savages.
Just freaked I gotta wait a whole month for more of Brule.

Why should the Picts be "more African looking"? I assume you mean "sub-Saharan African", not "North African" (REH places the Picts in North Africa and Europe during the Stone Age). Any depiction of Picts (any time before, say, 2000BC) as being "lo-brow savages" goes directly against everything Howard ever said about the "First Race". They're definitely "savages" during the Hyborian Age, but not "low-brow" or "apish" in any way. All of that happened after the Indo-Europeans invaded Europe in the Bronze Age (according to REH). In the Thurian Age, the Picts were very high-level barbarians, apparently possessing advanced metallurgy and capable of trans-oceanic voyages. Their services were courted by the most powerful Thurian nation (Valusia). Howard gives no hint of the Picts being analogous to his conception of (sub-Saharan) Africans. If anything, they are depicted more as sea-going Comanches (if such a thing can be envisioned) with iron/steel swords.

Granted, but it's clear to my eyes that artist Will Conrad has taken liberties with Howard's descriptions. The presentation is very much sub-Saharan Negroid, maybe even a touch of Caribbean with the dreadlocks. In the facial features and body shapes: Brule's nose is short and rounded, pug if you will, and lips are full. Check the serving girl's rump later on; nice and rounded and high up on her hips. Ka-Nu looks very much like an uncle of mine who's mother was Cherokee. Overall, skin tone is very much lightened than you would expect from Africans.

You are indeed correct that in the Thurian Age, Picts were highly civilized. Howard had little more than xenophobic imaginings of sub-Saharan peoples and their culture. So I don't see him granting "First Race" status to that demographic. Frazetta's depiction of Bran Mak Morn had him more squat and with a knotted brow, but I didn't quite agree with that depiction. I'm not saying Howard described Picts being of African descent, but that's what I'm seeing here in the comic. If you're a purist you ought to send a letter to Dark Horse.

[PFunkJAzz]

Fernando, on Dec 6 2008, 04:31 PM, said:

Very well said, Deuce! I agree 100% with your comments above. But, as for your comment below...
And here are some REH's depictions of Picts:

And, as we know very well, everytime REH speaks of "white race" or "white men" (as written in TVotW), he means straight-haired, thin-nosed, thin-liped and wide-eyed people - and not about Amerindian-like men.

Coulda sworn this was the thread pertaining to the Kull Dark Horse comic.

[Fernando]

PFunkJAzz, on Dec 7 2008, 03:19 AM, said:

Coulda sworn this was the thread pertaining to the Kull Dark Horse comic.

Of course this thread belongs "to the Kull Dark Horse comic", my friend! I was only saying how Picts - both in Hyborian and Thurian Age - should look like, agreeing with REH's writings.

[PFunkJAzz]

Fernando, on Dec 6 2008, 05:34 PM, said:

how Picts - both in Hyborian and Thurian Age - should look like, agreeing with REH's writings.

My earliest encounters of depictions of Picts in the Kull saga were from the Lancer edition, KING KULL

.

The "Brule" envisioned here is essentially non-Caucasian. More of a Pacific Islander stock: dark brown skinned and thick wavy hair. While, I'm fully aware that Howard described Picts as white and savage in Conan and Bran Mak Morn stories, I have to admit I don't recall the actual descriptions from the Kull stories ( dear Fernando didn't quote from any Kull stories). I always accepted artist Roy Krenkel's intrerpretation and never quite reconciled with how Frazetta drew the Picts. I'll have to dig out my copy.

BTW I think it's a greivous mistake to consider Native American tribes like Comanche, Sioux, Cherokee et al Caucasian. Their stock is more in line with Asiatic peoples. I think that was a point Fernando was trying to make.

[Fernando]

PFunkJAzz, on Dec 8 2008, 12:53 AM, said:

While, I'm fully aware that Howard described Picts as white and savage in Conan and Bran Mak Morn stories, I have to admit I don't recall the actual descriptions from the Kull stories ( dear Fernando didn't quote from any Kull stories).

Hey, PFunkJAzz!

I also don't remember the REH's depictions of Picts in Kull's yarns, so that I didn't quote. However, the The Hyborian Age essay gives us a great clue:

Quote

The Picts are of the same type as they always were – short, very dark, with black eyes and hair.

Thus, after re-evolving from ape-men, the Hyborian Age's Picts recovered the appearance they had in Thurian's one.

[PFunkJAzz]

Well the first few Kulll stories, were the first Howard wrote. He hadn't fully fleshed out his Pictish pseudo-history.
There's more details behind the Picts in the Del Rey BMM The Last King collection. There's an obscure reference to
origns in Africa as Neanderthals, but later migrating to the Mediterrean and northward to the mainland.

All said, I still prefer Conrad's Brule. but here's a more accurate version of a Pict from Rafael Kayanan.

[Fernando]

PFunkJAzz, on Dec 8 2008, 07:52 AM, said:

Well the first few Kulll stories, were the first Howard wrote. He hadn't fully fleshed out his Pictish pseudo-history.
There's more details behind the Picts in the Del Rey BMM The Last King collection. There's an obscure reference to origns in Africa as Neanderthals, but later migrating to the Mediterrean and northward to the mainland.

About the "obscure references" - take from Men of the Shadows -, they doesn't mean that the Picts became Neanderthals when they went to Africa. What the Pict wizard says in that tale is about the Picts had been mixed their blood with a red-haired Neanderthal-like people in England, after the first Aryan migrations (which took place in 2000 B.C.).

Quote

All said, I still prefer Conrad's Brule. but here's a more accurate version of a Pict from Rafael Kayanan.

Man, this is one of the reasons for I love Kayanan's artworks! The way he depicts the Picts is 100% faithful to REH!

[PFunkJAzz]

Fernando, on Dec 8 2008, 07:15 AM, said:

About the "obscure references" - take from Men of the Shadows -, they doesn't mean that the Picts became Neanderthals when they went to Africa. What the Pict wizard says in that tale is about the Picts had been mixed their blood with a red-haired Neanderthal-like people in England, after the first Aryan migrations (which took place in 2000 B.C.)

LOL it was only "obscure" because I was only browsing and hadn't bought the copy to read. Apparently I didn't get the full gist of the story. I have plans to get the complete line of Howrad del rey collections in the coming year.

[Arvid Nelson]

Hey fellas! At last, I return. I'm actually just procrastinating from writing the very last issue of another comic book, one I've been working on for the last ten years!

Anyway. The subject of the Picts are a really interesting one. Dark Horse/we/I decided to make Brule--all of the Picts--dark-skinned for a few reasons, all of them based on what I hope is a careful reading of Howard's source material, along with what I hope are some intelligent interpolations.

There's a persistent myth in Ireland and Wales, and, to a lesser extent, in Scotland, that their nations were founded, at least in part, by "swarthy" colonists from the sea. Spain, Egypt, even lost tribes of Israel are the purported identities of these "dark" colonists. The reason is that a lot of Irish, Welsh and Scottish people have very dark hair, which seems anomalous for the British Isles.

As far as I know, all these theories are totally absurd. The real reason for the dark hair is probably just genetic drift--the original Indo-European settlers of Ireland, Wales and Scotland probably just had dark hair. No need to get more complicated than that.

but--

Howard probably believed the stories of "dark-skinned" ancestors settling the British Isles. That's where our idea of making the Picts dark-skinned comes from. During the cataclysm between Kull and Conan's time, the Picts flee their sinking islands and intermarry with the western-most people of the trans-Thurian continent, imparting their culture at the same time. What emerges are the Picts of Conan's time, a Caucasian-looking people, often times with dark hair. Over the centuries, the Picts go into decline, until they're the "half-ape" savages of Bran and Cormac's time. But their descent into savagery has nothing to do with the fact they have the "blood of dark-skinned people" in their veins. It seems to me Howard usually doesn't attribute cultural decline to "racial" intermixing. Most of the time, it's external, environmental factors.

I gave Will some latitude when coming up with the "look" for the Picts. I figured they'd look either Asian Indian or African. I was leaning towards Indian, but I didn't want to influence Will. He choose African, which is an equally good choice, as far as I'm concerned.

That's that! We're making the Lemurians Asian looking. Kelkor, whom we've seen a few times in the comic already (he hasn't been named yet) is a Lemurian, and if you look closely, you can tell he's Asian. He's the one who announces Kull's presence in the first issue.

Hope you guys are liking the story so far! Reviews generally seem to be positive. We're really working hard to make sure this is the most memorable adaptation of Kull ever witnessed by mortal eyes since the seas drowned Poseidonis.

[Fernando]

Arvid Nelson, on Dec 8 2008, 06:38 PM, said:

I gave Will some latitude when coming up with the "look" for the Picts. I figured they'd look either Asian Indian or African. I was leaning towards Indian, but I didn't want to influence Will. He choose African, which is an equally good choice, as far as I'm concerned.

What? Even knowing that Thurian Age's Picts - as well as Hyborian Age's ones - had European features, did you left Will depict them in a African look?!!

Quote

Hope you guys are liking the story so far! Reviews generally seem to be positive. We're really working hard to make sure this is the most memorable adaptation of Kull ever witnessed by mortal eyes since the seas drowned Poseidonis.

"Liking"? I hope this stuff NEVER ARRIVES HERE TO BRASIL!!!!!!

This post has been edited by Fernando: 10 December 2008 - 02:25 AM

[PFunkJAzz]

It's all cool & the gang with me Arvid. I called it as I saw it, knowing full well what liberties were taken. It's shaping as a very solid adaptation. Yes I'm very pleased.

Fernando, on the other hand, is a bit hard to read; sarcasm just doesn't carry over the internet.

[Fernando]

PFunkJAzz, on Dec 8 2008, 10:37 PM, said:

Fernando, on the other hand, is a bit hard to read; sarcasm just doesn't carry over the internet.

I'm not being sarcastic, PFunkJAzz. I'm simply angry with what's happening with one more REH's character. After I had translated/readed the Am-ra poems/fragments, as well as "Exile of Atlantis" and "The Curse of the Golden Skull", I was hoping to see at least Kull's adaptations which better portrayed Atlantis, as well as Kull's childhood, adolescence and his brief fight with King Borna - which made of Kull king of Valusia. But Arvid Nelson and Will Conrad begun by the adaptation of "The Shadow Kingdom", as if REH had never written those two former Atlantean's tales...

And, as if all this negligenge wasn't bad enough, AN/WC had to give a wife for Kull and show the Picts with an African look!! I was hoping to see Dark Horse doing a better job than Marvel did. This is not "a bit hard to read"; it's too hard to read!! My only happiness is to know that this stuff didn't arrive here - and, as I said before, I hope it never comes.

[PFunkJAzz]

So let me get this straight...you really haven't read the DH KULL series, correct?

[El Borak's Li'l Brother]

I read and "read" Kull ish 2 and it was an improvement over ish 1, but there were issues about it. I expected no less.

One thing it did do for me is make me yearn for the comic books of my youth: Make mine Marvel!

Ah, I remember it well... Back when writers weaved stories around the illustrations rather than writing mainly dialogue and leaving the reader to assume what's up from the illustrations. And I openly admit in my youth I wondered why so much writing with the illustrations, but as I grew up I understood that that was how the stories were told. Now, I find that comic books, at least most of what I read, rely on the illustrations and dialogue, leaving the reader to interpret the rest, which doesn't make for a full story.

If I hadn't read The Shadow Kingdom, therefore knowing the full story, before reading this adaptation, I feel I would've seen...say, the meeting between Kull and Ka-nu with its blank-word frames of facial expressions as less than it was due to getting nothing of Kull and Ka-nu's inner feelings, story advancement outside of dialogue...

I know, I know. That's so 20th Century.

[Arvid Nelson]

Uh...

First of all, I'm not going to have a debate with anyone who calls my writing "filth" any more than I'm going to have a debate over whether the Earth is flat or round. I think some of the above remarks are incredibly uncivilized and unfortunate, given the amount of work everyone has put into this adaptation.

Howard definitely describes Brule as "dark, like all his race". I've read all the Thuria stories and essays very carefully, and I'm not entirely sure where the certitude about the Caucasian facial features of the Thurian Picts comes from. If someone would like to point it out to me--civilly--I would consider it a favor.

Hey, El Borak's Li'l Brother! Yes, we're going for a different storytelling style than the old Marvel editions. Times, they have surely changed. It's funny what you write, because to my young, "whipper-snapper" eyes, the Marvel stories are very hard to read. It's probably the same way you feel about my Kull adaptation! That caption-and-panel style writing just seems a little dated to me. I definitely come from the "show, don't tell" school. One of my guiding principles is "if it's not totally clear from the art and the story how the characters are feeling, then it's a failure of the artist and the writer". It's harder to write that way, and it takes more effort on the part of the reader, but I really do think that if you give it a chance, if Mohammed will go to the mountain, you'll find it can be a very rewarding experience. All that's assuming I did my job properly, and Will did his. Win, lose or draw, I always put my best effort forward.

[Officer Aggro]

Just thought I'd throw in my brief thoughts on the issue. I loved it! I don't mind how the Picts are being depicted, and I think much of it is open to interpretation. Anyway, only the first Pict who approached Kull in his throneroom really looked African to me...not that that even matters. Keep up the excellent work, and I'm looking forward to #3!

[El Borak's Li'l Brother]

Arvid Nelson, on Dec 8 2008, 11:58 PM, said:

Uh...

First of all, I'm not going to have a debate with anyone who calls my writing "filth" any more than I'm going to have a debate over whether the Earth is flat or round. I think some of the above remarks are incredibly uncivilized and unfortunate, given the amount of work everyone has put into this adaptation.

Howard definitely describes Brule as "dark, like all his race". I've read all the Thuria stories and essays very carefully, and I'm not entirely sure where the certitude about the Caucasian facial features of the Thurian Picts comes from. If someone would like to point it out to me--civilly--I would consider it a favor.

Hey, El Borak's Li'l Brother! Yes, we're going for a different storytelling style than the old Marvel editions. Times, they have surely changed. It's funny what you write, because to my young, "whipper-snapper" eyes, the Marvel stories are very hard to read. It's probably the same way you feel about my Kull adaptation! That caption-and-panel style writing just seems a little dated to me. I definitely come from the "show, don't tell" school. One of my guiding principles is "if it's not totally clear from the art and the story how the characters are feeling, then it's a failure of the artist and the writer". It's harder to write that way, and it takes more effort on the part of the reader, but I really do think that if you give it a chance, if Mohammed will go to the mountain, you'll find it can be a very rewarding experience. All that's assuming I did my job properly, and Will did his. Win, lose or draw, I always put my best effort forward.

Times have changed indeed. Comic books used to be for kids and kids were hot for good, solidly told stories which involved reading both description/dialogue and art. Plus, comic books back then were not only entertainment but also educational in that the english used was proper in the storytelling (so I learned in a documentary about comic books in the old days). Comic books now are for adults who 1) don't need no education; 2) don't have no time to read a good story. Pictures with minimal reading will do.

Look, I am enjoying this series. If I wasn't, I wouldn't've gone beyond ish 1. The story is well written and the artist's work is top notch. I apologize if my outdated opinion insulted you in any way.

[Arvid Nelson]

I wasn't "offended" by anything you wrote, EBLB! Far from it. In fact, I apologize if you got that impression. Wasn't my intention. The only thing that irritated me were some of the comments made before yours, by someone else.

Even assuming you didn't like my take on Kull--and I'm glad you are enjoying it!--far be it from me to take exception. I thought everything you wrote was very well thought-out and perceptive. I really don't mind unfavorable reviews, as long as the reasoning is at least slightly coherent and intelligent. And I understand that's not even what you were doing in the first place. So: thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it.

I mean, you're right: comics today are very different from the 70s. Some things have been gained... and some have been lost. I completely agree with you that most comics today are illiterate garbage. Hopefully mine aren't among the ranks of the unintelligent and unintelligible, but that's for others to decide.

Officer Aggro -- thank you, also, for the kind words! There are a few twists and turns coming in Issue 3, I really hope you'll like it. I agree with you, the exact "racial type" of the characters isn't the most important thing in the story.

This post has been edited by Arvid Nelson: 09 December 2008 - 03:08 PM