[deuce]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SPOILERS WILL FOLLOW<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Back from the dead, just like ol' Kathulos, the new Robert E. Howard "Story of the Month" is here to haunt the living.

Skull-Face is one of Robert E. Howard's most famous works. In his classic eulogy/essay about Howard, "Robert Ervin Howard: In Memoriam", HP Lovecraft wrote this:

"Few readers will ever forget the hideous and compelling power of that macabre masterpiece, 'Worms of the Earth', in Weird Tales for November, 1932. Other powerful fantasies lay outside the connected series -- these including the memorable serial 'Skull-Face'..."

Skull-Face has been reprinted in most of the decades of the last (well-nigh) 80 years ( http://www.howardwor...orysa.htm#skul2 ). It was the title story for Arkham House's volume, Skull-Face and Others ( http://en.wikipedia....Face_and_Others ), a landmark in REH hardcover publishing. Howard's yarn has inspired artists the likes of Virgil Finlay, Ken Kelly and Allen Koszowski. When it was first published in Weird Tales as a serial, Skull-Face was voted the readers' favorite for 2 out of the 3 issues it appeared in (in 1929). This yarn may have been so influential that it even influenced its own main inspiration, Sax Rohmer.

Sax Rohmer was a major influence upon REH (see: http://www.rehupa.com/bookshelf_r.htm ; click on "Rohmer"). Rohmer was one of the most successful writers of "weird adventure" during the early 20th century (see: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/rohmer.htm ). His most famous creation, and the primary influence upon Skull-Face, is the Insidious Doctor Fu Manchu ( http://www.njedge.ne...pp/FuFrames.htm ). Rohmer wrote three initial Fu Manchu novels, the last, The Hand of Fu Manchu, being published in 1917. By the time that REH wrote Skull-Face, the time for a "new Fu Manchu" was ripe. However, it appears that Howard had been reading other works by the prolific Rohmer before he created his "weird menace" masterpiece. One of the most likely is Brood of the Witch-Queen (my favorite Rohmer novel, BTW). The antagonist, Antony Ferrara, is a resurrected Egyptian who makes his advent in Khartoum (by way of the Sahara), rumours of his coming whispering before him as he advances on Cairo. He is closely associated with "scorpions" and "the scorpion wind". He possesses a "reptilian glance", just as his literary descendant, Kathulos. Ferrara's adversaries are two "primitive Celtic" Scotsmen by the name of "Cairn".
Another influential Rohmer villain appears to be Fo-Hi, the Golden Scorpion. A satellite of Fu Manchu, the Golden Scorpion appeared in two of Rohmer's "Gaston Max" novels: The Yellow Claw and The Golden Scorpion ( http://www.njedge.net/~knapp/Max.htm ).
Howard's Skull-Face/Kathulos was a resurrected "mummy", connected with Egypt, who possessed a miraculous "elixir". When Rohmer revived his Fu Manchu series in the 1930's, he hinted that the "Devil Doctor" bore a curious resemblance to an Egyptian mummy and had Fu concoct his own "elixir". Very likely, Rohmer simply took the same ideas from HIS OWN NOVELS (that REH used earlier) to embroider the "new, improved Fu Manchu", with Rohmer's "inspiration" springing from the same source as Howard's: the earlier novels (and concepts) of Sax Rohmer. Still, one has to wonder...

Before he created Skull-Face/Kathulos, Howard had never really managed to depict a truly compelling, epic villain, IMO. Louinet has pointed out the very likely possibility that REH "cannibalized" the characters of Thulsa Doom and Kuthulos from the Kull yarn, The Cat and the Skull/"Delcardes' Cat" to create Kathulos of Atlantis. IMO, Thulsa Doom (about whom REH only wrote ONE unpublished-in-his-lifetime yarn) is basically "Skeletor on 'Roids", if that. Kathulos of Atlantis, OTOH, is a powerful enough creation to impress everyone from HPL to Karl Edward Wagner. A great villain is essential to many S&S tales. REH nailed down the crafting of THAT particular ingredient in Skull-Face. From there, Howard would go on to threaten the world with the likes of Natohk/Thugra Khotan and Xaltotun, both lineal descendants of the "Rohmeresque villain". The influence of Rohmer was all over the 20th century's pulp/pop-culture. Ian Fleming freely admitted to being a Rohmer fan from childhood. Dr. No is also a "son of Fu Manchu", just as Xaltotun and Kathulos. If a hero is defined by his adversaries, one could say that Rohmer was one of the "grandfathers" of BOTH Conan AND James Bond.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention a couple of other literary fore-fathers connected to this tale...

Howard mentioned more than once that Robert W. Chambers was an author he admired. Chambers (besides being a seminal influence upon HPL's "Mythos" and upon Howard's Beyond the Black River and Wolves Beyond the Border) appears to be one of the primal sires of the "yellow peril" tale. His story, The Maker of Moons (1896), contains many elements used later by Rohmer, REH and others. His 1921 novel, The Slayer of Souls (very likely read by Howard), is basically a continuation of "Moons". An important element in RCW's two tales is the forbidden city of Yian, the city of Erlik in the remotest mountains of China. In Skull-Face, Baron Rokoff learns something in inner Mongolia worth dying for...

A. Merritt is another probable influence ( http://en.wikipedia....Abraham_Merritt ). Merritt has been called the "Stephen King" and the "JRR Tolkien" of the early/mid-twentieth century (such comparisons refer to Merritt's overwhelming popularity, NOT his style or subject matter). He appears to be (along with ERB) the "red-headed step-child" of REH influences. Howard mentioned Merritt very seldom, yet we know from REH's own testimony that he read virtually every issue of Argosy from (at least) 1923-on. Merritt was the unquestioned "star author" of Argosy. In the summer of 1927 (probably a good year before REH wrote Skull-Face), Merritt's Seven Footprints to Satan was serialized in Argosy. The "Satan" of the title is reminiscient of Rohmer's Fu Manchu. The unique plot-points of "Satan" (in regards to Skull-Face) are these: the fact that James Kirkham, the protagonist, is forcibly tricked into serving "Satan" AND that a major moral crossroads for the character is when his "Master" commands him to commit murder against an essentially blameless target. These points are paralleled in Skull-Face, but are NOT present in any of Rohmer's novels, AFAIK. There is also "Satan's" use of the addictive, hallucinogenic drug, "keft". Merritt's short novel was the first major work to capitalize on Rohmer's concepts (albeit, with MAJOR innovations). Also, it's faster pace, more bad-a$$ protagonist and overall tighter style of prose may have given Howard the idea that he, too, could spin an "updated" yarn with a Fu Manchu-style antagonist. Seven Footprints to Satan was voted the best serial ever by the readers of Argosy in 1939.
*Note: Merritt joined the elite ranks of REH "collaborators" when he participated, along with Howard, in the round-robin fantasy tale, The Challenge From Beyond.

Robert E. Howard's tale of addiction, deceit and apocalyptic unrest still resonates today. Stephen Costigan is an utterly shattered "hero". He cares nothing for this world or himself. He finds himself enslaved, but then, in the midst of his thralldom, he grasps a reason to stand tall and go down fighting. Costigan uses the very chains that bind him against his oppressor (much like Conn in The Grey God Passes). The "politics" of Skull-Face may be dated, but the primal struggle of the individual against titanic forces which seek to manipulate and destroy him is timeless.

I can't wait until Rusty Burke unleashes "Black Wind Blowing: The Weird Menace Tales of Robert E. Howard" upon an unsuspecting literary world, with Skull-Face as the centerpiece.

For excellent reviews of the first three "Fu Manchu" novels: http://community-2.w...wsII/index.html
For reviews of Seven Footprints to Satan and The Slayer of Souls:
http://community-2.w...ture/page4.html (scroll down)

Anyway, comments?

BTW, as a bonus , we'll also be discussing the fragmentary sequel to Skull-Face, "Taveral Manor".

[amsterdamaged]

Hey Deuce! Can you reconcile Kutholos' Atlantis with Kull's? Or are you of the opinion that the stories take place in different fictional universes? REH never mentions that Atlantis achieved any kind of advanced civilization prior to the cataclysm.

[Taranaich]

Atlantis is all over the place when it comes to REH's fiction: there's the light-eyed dark-haired barbarians of the Thurian Age, which seems to be at odds with the advanced civilizations of dusky, dark-eyed people depicted in "The Moon of Skulls" and "Skull-Face". To add more to the pot, "Black Canaan" has black "Kings of Atlantis"! I don't think the fact that the Atlanteans of Kull's era necessarily means that there wasn't another, later migration of dusky people to found a colony in another part of the continent, or for there to be black migrants to found their kingdoms. The Atlanteans of "The Hyborian Age" and Kull tales could just refer to that particular ethnic group that gave rise to the Cimmerians, with Atlantis referring to the continent itself, and the later civilizations founded there. I'm sure deuce'll provide a more in-depth and sensible answer though.

Anyways...

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his yarn may have been so influential that it even influenced its own main inspiration, Sax Rohmer.

Now that's pretty impressive. I've heard a few people who've been inspired by people influenced by themselves, but it's awesome to see it in relation to Howard.

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IMO, Thulsa Doom (about whom REH only wrote ONE unpublished-in-his-lifetime yarn) is basically "Skeletor on 'Roids", if that.

Him, on 'Roids? Now THAT's scary!

Joking aside, I do think Thulsa Doom could've been improved, since he appears a bit from nowhere, and even though he's built up as this awesome arch-nemesis, nothing comes of it. The name itself is kind of comic-bookish: not derogatory at all, it just doesn't fit in with the more original names Howard came up with like Natohk, Xaltotun, Tsotha-Lanti and the like, or other Thurian-era names. Of course, maybe "Doom" was just a perfectly mundane surname back then! I did like the visual incongruity of a flaming skull on a big beefy body, rather than the emaciated skeletal figure one would expect to connect to a face, but that was really all he had going for him. But I digress.

Skull-Face is one of those stories that was just begging to be made into a big action blockbuster, especially one that fits the sensibilities of the 50's and 60's, in glorious Technicolor. The visual of the Atlanteans' lacquered sarcophagi lying in the murky depths of the ocean, wrapped in fronds of seaweed, flanked by the eroded ruins of their mighty towers and citadels in wonderfully eerie and dark, one of the most striking images in all Howard's fiction for me. Kathulos himself is iconic: a creature whose physical presence - his parchment-like skin and ancient bony figure look like they would crumble into dust in a light grip - is weak, yet his metaphysical presence is truly monstrous, one that seems unassailable powerful and dominating.

I cannot speak from personal experience on Howard's depiction of Hashish-dreaming, but it certainly doesn't do any other depictions of a Hashish trip that I've read any shame. The racist undertones of a "black empire" rising up are unfortunate, and as Deuce says the politics are a bit dated, but that's kind of par for the course in these tales, and the central idea of second/third-world countries uniting to overthrow the "free world" is one that's certainly relevant today. It's just the players that have changed, not the game.

Another fun thing I like is the skill with which Howard chose his opening quotations for the chapters. All of them fit perfectly, giving a flavour of what was to come without necessarily spoiling the action. Indeed, I found this Mundy quotation for Chapter 19 "Black Fury" very evocative of a certain other literary work which was to come in the future:

"The ringed wolf glared the circle round
Through baleful, blue-lit eye,
Not unforgetful of his debt.
Quoth he, 'I'll do some damage yet
Or ere my turn to die!'"

I'm hoping Deuce will grace us with his marvelous annotations soon.

[deuce]

amsterdamaged, on Oct 15 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

Hey Deuce! Can you reconcile Kutholos' Atlantis with Kull's? Or are you of the opinion that the stories take place in different fictional universes? REH never mentions that Atlantis achieved any kind of advanced civilization prior to the cataclysm.

Hey Amster! While I feel that Taranaich's points are quite cogent, I thought I might add a couple of things...

In the Kull yarns and in The Hyborian Age essay, Atlantis is always described as being a continent of "barbarians". However, what happened subsequent to Kull's era in Atlantis is very vague. The Hyborian Age mentions a "barbaric Atlantis"? It also speaks of a "barbaric Lemuria". Yet, evidence from Kull-era yarns like The Curse of the Golden Skull depict a Lemurian Empire of high-flung temples and literate, sophisticated wizard-priests. The Hyborian Age essay is not "infallible" (see Acheron or "Elder Koth").

Getting more specifically to Kathulos, he is unequivocally cited in the "Conrad and Kirowan" tale, Dig Me No Grave (coincidentally , the "SotM" for Halloween/November). It appears the version we have was written circa 1932-33. This is the same period for the Conan yarns and The Hyborian Age essay. A "Conrad and Kirowan" tale written slightly later, The Haunter of the Ring, explicitly links that series to Thoth-Amon's Ring and Stygia. By implication, it also links Howard's intrepid investigators (and Kathulos) to Conan and the Hyborian Age. By contrast, there are zero mentions of Kull in the Conan yarns and in The Hyborian Age essay.

BTW, this "Howardian 'Atlantis' Conundrum" is a very wide-ranging topic of discussion. It would probably be best to continue it on this thread: http://www.conan.com...?showtopic=1939

And yes, as I've stated before, I am an "inclusionist" when it comes to the dark, powerful, intricate universe within which REH set his yarns.

[deuce]

Taranaich, on Oct 16 2008, 07:23 AM, said:

Atlantis is all over the place when it comes to REH's fiction: there's the light-eyed dark-haired barbarians of the Thurian Age, which seems to be at odds with the advanced civilizations of dusky, dark-eyed people depicted in "The Moon of Skulls" and "Skull-Face". To add more to the pot, "Black Canaan" has black "Kings of Atlantis"! I don't think the fact that the Atlanteans of Kull's era necessarily means that there wasn't another, later migration of dusky people to found a colony in another part of the continent, or for there to be black migrants to found their kingdoms. The Atlanteans of "The Hyborian Age" and Kull tales could just refer to that particular ethnic group that gave rise to the Cimmerians, with Atlantis referring to the continent itself, and the later civilizations founded there. I'm sure deuce'll provide a more in-depth and sensible answer though.

Hey Taranaich! Hard to argue with your points. As for "the black kings of Atlantis", there is mention of blacks in the "Am-ra, the Ta-an" materials. It's always wise, IMO, to remember that Atlantis was a continent. The Theosophical literature of the time (which we know that REH was at least acquainted with) peoples Atlantis with several "ethnic groups". Also, there is nothing whatsoever to indicate that the Cataclysm followed hard upon the heels of Kull's demise. From here on out, I'm going to restrict any Atlantean comments from myself to those strictly pertaining to Kathulos and Skull-Face.

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IMO, Thulsa Doom (about whom REH only wrote ONE unpublished-in-his-lifetime yarn) is basically "Skeletor on 'Roids", if that.

Him, on 'Roids? Now THAT's scary!

Joking aside, I do think Thulsa Doom could've been improved, since he appears a bit from nowhere, and even though he's built up as this awesome arch-nemesis, nothing comes of it. The name itself is kind of comic-bookish: not derogatory at all, it just doesn't fit in with the more original names Howard came up with like Natohk, Xaltotun, Tsotha-Lanti and the like, or other Thurian-era names. Of course, maybe "Doom" was just a perfectly mundane surname back then! I did like the visual incongruity of a flaming skull on a big beefy body, rather than the emaciated skeletal figure one would expect to connect to a face, but that was really all he had going for him. But I digress.

My "on 'Roids" comment was more figurative than literal. I simply meant that TD was a "stronger" character than Skeletor. However, considering the years of character development lavished upon He-Man's nemesis, it's possible that ol' Skelly would actually edge out TD.
*BTW, thanks for the pic.

Thulsa Doom, as briefly described by Howard, was tall and thin to the point of emaciation. His cranium wasn't in flames (would've been hard to impersonate Kuthulos, otherwise) but his eyes were. The misconception that TD looked like Ghost Rider(tm) seems to be widespread. Thulsa Doom's skull is described as "fleshless". However, this doesn't seem to indicate "skinlessness". If so, once again, this would've made it hard to impersonate Kuthulos. What seems to be the case, is that REH was describing a "skull covered in skin". This idea is repeated with Howard villains like Kathulos and the Master of Yimsha. To me, this is actually a more disturbing visual (though not the one that most Skull-Face artists have gone with). I find images that depict mummified corpses with the classic "mummy gape" as being far more "spooky" than mere skulls.
One could say that Munch's painting, The Scream, evokes the image of the "mummy gape".

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Skull-Face is one of those stories that was just begging to be made into a big action blockbuster, especially one that fits the sensibilities of the 50's and 60's, in glorious Technicolor. The visual of the Atlanteans' lacquered sarcophagi lying in the murky depths of the ocean, wrapped in fronds of seaweed, flanked by the eroded ruins of their mighty towers and citadels is wonderfully eerie and dark, one of the most striking images in all Howard's fiction for me.

Yeah, that image has always haunted me, as well. I might almost venture to speculate that it's one of the aspects of Skull-Face that "sold" Lovecraft on the story.

Since you bring up the possibility of a Skull-Face movie, what about casting? With the proper make-up, I feel that Christopher Lee would've been a great Kathulos.
What about the screenplay? What would have to be "revised" for, say, 1963? What about now?

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Kathulos himself is iconic: a creature whose physical presence - his parchment-like skin and ancient bony figure look like they would crumble into dust in a light grip - is weak, yet his metaphysical presence is truly monstrous, one that seems unassailable powerful and dominating.

I absolutely agree about Skull-Face's "iconic" status, except... In one instance, Howard describes Kathulos' "iron grip". Remember, "dynamite comes in (gaunt, emaciated, mummified) packages".

I cannot speak from personal experience on Howard's depiction of Hashish-dreaming, but it certainly doesn't do any other depictions of a Hashish trip that I've read any shame.

C'mon, now, Taranaich! 'Fess up! You're amongst friends.
Seriously, the topic is discussed here: http://www.conan.com...?showtopic=6311
Howard seems to have used "S-F" as a mine for later yarns that involved exotic drug use/trips (including those set in the Hyborian Age). I'll get to that in my annotations.

The racist undertones of a "black empire" rising up are unfortunate, and as Deuce says the politics are a bit dated, but that's kind of par for the course in these tales, and the central idea of second/third-world countries uniting to overthrow the "free world" is one that's certainly relevant today. It's just the players that have changed, not the game.

Howard wasn't that far off if one considers the Mau-Mau Uprising: http://en.wikipedia....au_Mau_Uprising
Secret oaths and everything. Absolutely wanton slaughter. Possibly, "black/pagan magic" rituals.
Of course, there is also the recent civil war in Liberia...
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FQlUM6hWKy0
http://www.foxnews.c...,337694,00.html

The thing to keep in mind with Liberia is that, despite what is sometimes claimed, it's history is not one of "white colonial imperialism". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia
The Liberians did this to themselves.

All this is not to say that REH was "right", just that what he envisioned in Skull-Face was not utterly without later parallels.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Kathulos was an "equal opportunity enslaver". He bragged of enslaving "whites" as well as "blacks" in his earlier incarnation. Skull-Face seems to have drawn a line between his own "Atlantean race" and any other "coloured races", just as Hitler discriminated against "sub-human Slavs". Kathulos didn't just dominate various "Third Worlders" (who had legitimate grievances), he also held many, many of Britian's "best and brightest" in thrall. Plenty of "white folk" bowed down to "the Master". Actually, I think that REH could've ratcheted-up the "paranoia quotient" a bit more in respect to Gordon, especially.

Many have pooh-poohed the "yellow peril" genre. Was it THAT unrealistic? While most tales focused upon the obvious "sleeping giant", China, wasn't there a Far Eastern nation in the 20's-30's that warranted a bit of apprehension? One that looked upon "round-eyed devil/barbarians" as fit only for servitude or extinction? Here's what REH had to say in a letter to TCS (July 30, 1923)...

"Who will our invaders be? From whence will they come? Where but from Asia? Can a nation ally the Tartars, the Mongols, the Indians; the tribes of Asia? Buddhist, Bonist, Bramin (sic), Erlikist, Mohammedan? Unite them and hurl their united strength against the rest of the world? Such a nation would rule the world.
Who can unite Asians but an Asian nation? What Asian nation could do so?"

Robert E. Howard was referring to Japan and (what would be) its "Greater East Co-Prosperity Sphere" (and its Yamato "master race" ideology). The description of an "Asian invader", with very little adjustment, could also apply to Kathulos and his ability to command loyalty from various religious adherents. Today, of course, we have a resurgent China, whose traditions for dividing the world into an "Upper Kingdom" (Heaven), "Middle Kingdom" (China) and the "Lower Kingdom" (all of us "barbarians", in our uncultured billions) are well-attested. We know that there is racial discrimination in the People's Republic of China right now. There was, also, a massacre of Angolan college students in Beijing back in in the 80's. The rioters were screaming, "Die, black devils!". Can someone please tell me when the native inhabitants of Angola ever "imperialistically colonised" mainland China?

Another fun thing I like is the skill with which Howard chose his opening quotations for the chapters. All of them fit perfectly, giving a flavour of what was to come without necessarily spoiling the action. Indeed, I found this Mundy quotation for Chapter 19 "Black Fury" very evocative of a certain other literary work which was to come in the future:

"The ringed wolf glared the circle round
Through baleful, blue-lit eye,
Not unforgetful of his debt.
Quoth he, 'I'll do some damage yet
Or ere my turn to die!'"

I've always marveled at Howard's ability to select just the right poetic headings for his works. A testament to his eidetic memory for poetry. A whole article could be devoted to such, IMO.
Talbot Mundy is a forgotten giant.

I'm hoping Deuce will grace us with his marvelous annotations soon.

They're comin', by and by.

[Fernando]

Delcardes' Cat:

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The face of the man was a bare white skull, in whose eye sockets flamed livid fire!

However, it seems REH depicted Thulsa Doom's skull as 100% naked - no flesh and also no skin.

Well, back to the main topic's theme, your comment about the black Atlantean people (Am-ra, the Ta-an) = the black kings of Atlantis (Black Canaan) was very interesting, and, IMO, elucidating! Thank you very much, Deuce! It's also interesting to notice - based upon the few lines I've read of the tale we're discussing - that Khatulos' Atlantis can be either post-Thurian or post-Hyborian.

This post has been edited by Fernando: 16 October 2008 - 10:02 PM

[Mikey_C]

Skull-face is one of my faves and got me reading Sax Rohmer for more of the same. I'm not alone in thinking REH excels his master, though. I was very surprised this didn't feature in one of the "Best Ofs", but I'm wondering now whether the racial theme isn't the reason. Even with Fu-Manchu, the "yellow peril" theme was watered down by the the time of the Christopher Lee movies in the '60s, in which he's the leader of the criminal underworld rather than a racial conspiracy. The (vastly superior) 1932 Boris Karloff version Mask of Fu Manchu is far more racist. Even by WW2 the anti-Chinese theme had become non-PC and Rohmer had to create a new non-racially-specific female character Sumuru for his Fu Manchuish tales.

As a point of interest, there's a very similar evil-mastermind-uniting-nonwhite-races theme in Tolkien's mate Charles Williams 1933 "spiritual shocker" Shadows of Ecstasy. With the British Empire on borrowed time, it must have pushed lots of buttons in that troubled period.

[deuce]

Fernando, on Oct 16 2008, 10:45 PM, said:

Delcardes' Cat:

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The face of the man was a bare white skull, in whose eye sockets flamed livid fire!

However, it seems REH depicted Thulsa Doom's skull as 100% naked - no flesh and also no skin.

Well, back to the main topic's theme, your comment about the black Atlantean people (Am-ra, the Ta-an) = the black kings of Atlantis (Black Canaan) was very interesting, and, IMO, elucidating! It's also interesting to notice - based upon the few lines I've read of the tale we're discussing - that Khatulos' Atlantis can be either post-Thurian or post-Hyborian.

Hey Fernando! Well, if Thulsa's skull was absolutely devoid of skin then TD's taunt to Kull, in regard to Kull being "a fool of no discernment", was pretty damn accurate.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

[Taranaich]

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My "on 'Roids" comment was more figurative than literal. I simply meant that TD was a "stronger" character than Skeletor. However, considering the years of character development lavished upon He-Man's nemesis, it's possible that ol' Skelly would actually edge out TD.
*BTW, thanks for the pic.

I figured you meant figurative, considering Skeletor's already mighty thews, it was a tongue-in-cheek jab. I'm pretty sure Marvel's development of TD could rival Skeletor, though Skelly has technology and a horde of goons on his side too.

I don't know where I got the idea that TD was muscular in the original stories: perhaps I misread the description in CatS and Delcades' Cat or something. I distinctly remember talk of muscles. Though I DO remember reading that his eyes were flaming once you reminded me. I'll have to reread those stories.

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Yeah, that image has always haunted me, as well. I might almost venture to speculate that it's one of the aspects of Skull-Face that "sold" Lovecraft on the story.

I'd certainly agree, it's right up Luvvie's alley.

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Since you bring up the possibility of a Skull-Face movie, what about casting? With the proper make-up, I feel that Christopher Lee would've been a great Kathulos.

Lee would have been fantastic, particularly in "Fu Manchu" mode. It would be cool seeing him portray a Rohmeresque Howard villain like Kathulos. I could also see the incomparable Doug Jones, who can certainly portray the emaciated, skeletal aspect of the character, and is a great actor himself.

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What about the screenplay? What would have to be "revised" for, say, 1963? What about now?

Now that you mention it, I could imagine a science-fiction "near future" version, with hashish replaced by a new, exotic drug (rediscovered/genetically recreated Black Lotus?), and after economic recession/wars/disasters rack the earth, the world economy could have been thrown back to an early 20th-century type of society with opium dens and rampant decay. Kind of like Blade Runner or Strange Days. Yar Khan could be doped up on some super-soldier serum instead of heroin, for example.

As for differences... I guess the whole "Imperial Revolt" aspect is a bit different now Africa, India etc are largely independent from direct British/French/Italian rule. 1963 would be very interesting: the civil rights movement in America was getting into gear, and it would be easy for Kathulos to manipulate disillusioned and angry young men to his side. The Indonesia Confrontation would have a dangerous new dynamic, as would the Buddhist Crises, the Vietnamese Coup and other things like the independence of Zanzibar & Kenya. Did Kathulos have a hand in the assassinations of Le Quang Tung and JFK, and the attempted assassination of Charles de Gaulle? Were the Big Freeze, Hurricane Flora, destruction of Barce, and eruption of Mount Agung natural or unnatural disasters? Was the rising of Surtsey a "test-drive", a grim prelude to the resurrection of Atlantis?

It's fun putting supernatural spins on historical events sometimes.

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I absolutely agree about Skull-Face's "iconic" status, except... In one instance, Howard describes Kathulos' "iron grip". Remember, "dynamite comes in (gaunt, emaciated, mummified) packages".

Ah, good catch. In a way, that adds to his weirdness: he looks like a withered old mummy ready to disintegrate, but is a lot tougher than such a thing should be in any sane world!

All this is not to say that REH was "right", just that what he envisioned in Skull-Face was not utterly without later parallels.

Very true. Howard could be very unsettlingly prescient at times.

[deuce]

Mikey_C, on Oct 16 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

Skull-face is one of my faves and got me reading Sax Rohmer for more of the same. I'm not alone in thinking REH excels his master, though.

Hey Mikey! I'm with ya, sword-brother. Lupoff, both in his Edgar Rice Burroughs: Master of Adventure and in his intro to the Berkley Skull-Face edition, basically says that REH out-Saxed ol' Sax. Still, there is something to be said for being a progenitor. Rohmer obviously possesed a "fevered" imagination. His creations still haunt us today (see the Rob Zombie trailer for "Werewolf Women of the SS"). His writing style is a bit "dated", but I'd rather read truly imaginative stories written in that style than ones written with all the creative flair of an over-ripe cantaloupe, which is what we're often subjected to these days.

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I was very surprised this didn't feature in one of the "Best Ofs", but I'm wondering now whether the racial theme isn't the reason.

Well, as noted on the "Horror Stories" thread, this yarn would've taken up a LOT of space. Plus, Rusty seems to be saving it for a "Weird Menace" collection. Still, I don't doubt that some of the themes in Skull-Face probably counted against its inclusion (though I might be wrong).

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Even with Fu-Manchu, the "yellow peril" theme was watered down by the the time of the Christopher Lee movies in the '60s, in which he's the leader of the criminal underworld rather than a racial conspiracy. The (vastly superior) 1932 Boris Karloff version Mask of Fu Manchu is far more racist. Even by WW2 the anti-Chinese theme had become non-PC and Rohmer had to create a new non-racially-specific female character Sumuru for his Fu Manchuish tales.

Quite right. Honestly, Rohmer seems to have had a love/hate relationship with the East.

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As a point of interest, there's a very similar evil-mastermind-uniting-nonwhite-races theme in Tolkien's mate Charles Williams 1933 "spiritual shocker" Shadows of Ecstasy. With the British Empire on borrowed time, it must have pushed lots of buttons in that troubled period.

JRRT couldn't stand Williams. CS Lewis shoehorned Williams into the Inklings.

[deuce]

Giving credit where it's due, here's a link to EBLB's old "Skull-Face" thread...

http://www.conan.com...?showtopic=3690

[deuce]

All right. My post about the "Dark Agnes" wiki might've been (a bit) overblown. Trust me, this 'un ain't. In the VERY short wikipedia article on Skull-Face, I've counted, at minimum, EIGHT OUTRIGHT MISTAKES. While I've included "grammatical" errors (directly relating to REH's text), I've excluded any "interpretational" stuff. This article gets numerous unalterable facts about Skull-Face FLAT WRONG. On top of THAT, it only covers about the FIRST CHAPTER, yet, it still manages to be wrong more than 50% of the time.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Skull_Face

[amsterdamaged]

It looks like whoever was writing the plot synopses simply got bored and quit after the first paragraph.

[deuce]

amsterdamaged, on Oct 21 2008, 06:23 AM, said:

It looks like whoever was writing the plot synopses simply got bored and quit after the first paragraph.

Yet, the anonymous "synopsist" managed to get most of the facts WRONG about the first chapter and everything else. Once again, Leo Grin's blog is relevant: http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=2119

[Mikey_C]

deuce, on Oct 17 2008, 12:03 AM, said:

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Even with Fu-Manchu, the "yellow peril" theme was watered down by the the time of the Christopher Lee movies in the '60s, in which he's the leader of the criminal underworld rather than a racial conspiracy. The (vastly superior) 1932 Boris Karloff version Mask of Fu Manchu is far more racist. Even by WW2 the anti-Chinese theme had become non-PC and Rohmer had to create a new non-racially-specific female character Sumuru for his Fu Manchuish tales.

Quite right. Honestly, Rohmer seems to have had a love/hate relationship with the East.

The YP theme was huge in popular culture. As part of my degree I did some research on the history of British trade unions' attitude to immigration. The Trade Union Congress was instrumental in campaigning for the 1905 Aliens Act, which brought in the UK's first peace-time immigration controls. In the old minutes from around that time, I read one delegate reciting stories of young girls being lured into East End opium dens and sold into white slavery that could have come direct from a Fu Manchu-type story. Actually, they more likely came from the gutter press, as there appears to have been no basis in reality. So really I think Sax Rohmer was exploiting a popular urban myth and, as you say, the reality is that he had a great respect for the East.

deuce said:

Quote

As a point of interest, there's a very similar evil-mastermind-uniting-nonwhite-races theme in Tolkien's mate Charles Williams 1933 "spiritual shocker" Shadows of Ecstasy. With the British Empire on borrowed time, it must have pushed lots of buttons in that troubled period.

JRRT couldn't stand Williams. CS Lewis shoehorned Williams into the Inklings.

I knew JRRT had no time for CW's writing, but I didn't realise his dislike was personal. It doesn't surprise me though; I'm sure that CW's occult dabblings (in the Golden Dawn) and heretical version of Christianity would have alienated Tolkien if nothing else did. There would have been probably more similarities between Williams and Rohmer (who was also an occultist), but he saw his writing as Art with a capital A, and would have looked down his nose at Rohmer's work. I wonder if they ever crossed paths?

Back to Skull-Face, isn't Kathulos a likely wordplay on Cthulhu, another ancient evil ready to return from beneath the sea?

Christopher Lee hates the Fu Manchu films, btw, apart from the first one. They became progressively cheaper and crappier. Above all, he deplores the producer Harry Alan Towers' decision to write his own stories rather than use Sax Rohmer. I'm not sure how he'd respond to a request to play Kathulos, but it might be worth asking! I have a cheeky thought in my mind that perhaps Jess Franco could be asked to direct, but that would have poor REH spiralling in his grave I'm sure...

[Kane]

Mikey_C, on Oct 21 2008, 04:23 PM, said:

Back to Skull-Face, isn't Kathulos a likely wordplay on Cthulhu, another ancient evil ready to return from beneath the sea?

someone else will have to look up the exact information. But IIRC, Howard received a letter shortly after SF was printed asking that same question. His reply was that he was not aware of rewriting the name Cthulhu into Kathulos.
This did not stop Lovecraft from mentioning the name L'mur-Kathulos
, a dark and powerful wizard from Lemuria, in the story "The Whisperer in the Dark".

[deuce]

Taranaich, on Oct 16 2008, 11:34 PM, said:

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Yeah, that image has always haunted me, as well. I might almost venture to speculate that it's one of the aspects of Skull-Face that "sold" Lovecraft on the story.

I'd certainly agree, it's right up Luvvie's alley.

Hey Taranaich! Actually, I think it possible that REH might have read HPL's The Temple (the coordinates are about the same) and that tale helped inspire REH's passage. If so, HPL would've basically been reading something very similar to his own words. Essentially, his own words/thoughts were being "said back to him", only in a slightly different context. According to the Neuro-Linguistic school of thought, this can be quite powerful.

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What about the screenplay? What would have to be "revised" for, say, 1963? What about now?

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Now that you mention it, I could imagine a science-fiction "near future" version, with hashish replaced by a new, exotic drug (rediscovered/genetically recreated Black Lotus?)

Whoa! Who said the various "Khemite Lotus" variants had ever been lost? "Black lotos" shows up in the Steve Harrison yarns. I'd imagine there are Tcho-Tcho-backed "lotus" operations going on all over the globe as we speak. I'd say Kathulos' "elixir" is lotus-based as well (see future annotations).

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and after economic recession/wars/disasters rack the earth, the world economy could have been thrown back to an early 20th-century type of society with opium dens and rampant decay. Kind of like Blade Runner or Strange Days. Yar Khan could be doped up on some super-soldier serum instead of heroin, for example.

VERY cool idea. Book a jet to Hollywood, brother.

As for differences... I guess the whole "Imperial Revolt" aspect is a bit different now Africa, India etc are largely independent from direct British/French/Italian rule. 1963 would be very interesting: the civil rights movement in America was getting into gear, and it would be easy for Kathulos to manipulate disillusioned and angry young men to his side. The Indonesia Confrontation would have a dangerous new dynamic, as would the Buddhist Crises, the Vietnamese Coup and other things like the independence of Zanzibar & Kenya. Did Kathulos have a hand in the assassinations of Le Quang Tung and JFK, and the attempted assassination of Charles de Gaulle? Were the Big Freeze, Hurricane Flora, destruction of Barce, and eruption of Mount Agung natural or unnatural disasters? Was the rising of Surtsey a "test-drive", a grim prelude to the resurrection of Atlantis?
It's fun putting supernatural spins on historical events sometimes.

More cool ideas. The de Gaulle assassination was masterminded out of Algeria (by French army dupes ). Perhaps LQT and JFK (RIP) were standing in the way of major lotus production out of the Golden Triangle. Kathulos definitely wasn't playing all his cards in Skull-Face, it would seem (more on that in the annotations).

[PainBrush]

deuce said:

A. Merritt is another probable influence ( http://en.wikipedia....Abraham_Merritt ). Merritt has been called the "Stephen King" and the "JRR Tolkien" of the early/mid-twentieth century (such comparisons refer to Merritt's overwhelming popularity, NOT his style or subject matter). He appears to be (along with ERB) the "red-headed step-child" of "REH influences". Howard mentioned Merritt very seldom, yet we know from REH's own testimony that he read virtually every issue of Argosy from (at least) 1923-on. Merritt was the unquestioned "star author" of Argosy. In the summer of 1927 (probably a good year before REH wrote Skull-Face), Merritt's Seven Footprints to Satan was serialized in Argosy. The "Satan" of the title is reminiscient of Rohmer's Fu Manchu.

I haven't read 'Skull-Face' in a few years , hell maybe a decade or so ! I'll have to dig that one out now after reading this topic I forgot how good & sinister that one was ! Not really relevant , but reading your first post above tonight , where you mention Merritt there , I did a few searches on some stuff related & figured I'd share this little bit of interesting data I dug up , I know I'm not alone being a fan of all these writers ! I've read some Merritt , but not all , or even most of his stuff . Out of curiosity I just did a search to see if the great scary old movie I haven't seen in years "Burn Witch Burn" was based on Merritt's story of that same name & found out it wasn't . BUT it IS based on Fritz Leibers story 'Conjure Wife' , with the screenplay done by Richard Matheson & Charles Beaumont .

Beaumont , - writer of a lot of great scary t.v. programs/movies ( Poe's 'Masque o/t Red Death' & 'Premature Burial' , '7 Faces of Dr. Lao' , 'Brain Dead' (?) )
& coincidentally , in his 2 dozen episodes of Twilight Zone , the episode 'Living Doll' which wierdly enough I was just babbling about in the other topic on these forums about good scary viewing in time for Halloween ! " I'm Talking Tina,........and I'm going to kill you !" - man that creeped me out as a kid watching the old reruns of Twilight Zone ! Beaumont wrote that one !

and the legendary Matheson , author and writer of screenplays .
Poe's 'Pit &/t Pendulum , 'Tales of Terror' , 'the Raven' ,
screenplay for Dennis Wheatleys 'Devil Rides Out' ,
'The Incredible Shrinking Man' (being remade right now !)
wrote both the 'Night Stalker'/'Night Strangler' Kolchak movies for t.v.
wrote many great episodes for Twilight Zone & Outer Limits and Night Gallery .
The 'Trilogy of Terror' (which I also coincidentally mentioned just the other day on these forums in the same topic about good scary movies in time for Halloween - that insane little 'voodoo' doll freaked me out as a kid !)
He wrote the screenplay for the great 1973 version of 'Dracula' with Jack Palance as Count D.
and the novel 'I Am Legend' which was made into the movies 'Last Man on Earth' , 'Omega Man' , and last years 'I am Legend' w/ Will Smith ( a 'pre-quel' is being made right now)& too many other great stories/films/t.v. to list ! Not to mention maybe his best creation , his son Richard Christian Matheson , also one hell of a damn good writer !!

[deuce]

Hey PB! Cool stuff. Karl Edward Wagner once ranked Merritt's Burn, Witch, Burn as one of the "Best Supernatural Horror Novels of All Time". High praise, considering the source.

Here's a couple of links to artwork for Seven Footprints to Satan (NSFW!):
http://ph.groups.yah.../view/e3b1?b=33

http://ph.groups.yah.../view/e3b1?b=34

I wouldn't have minded if REH had thrown a little more of this in Skull-Face.

[Rusty Burke]

Kane, on Oct 22 2008, 02:12 AM, said:

someone else will have to look up the exact information. But IIRC, Howard received a letter shortly after SF was printed asking that same question. His reply was that he was not aware of rewriting the name Cthulhu into Kathulos.
This did not stop Lovecraft from mentioning the name L'mur-Kathulos, a dark and powerful wizard from Lemuria, in the story "The Whisperer in the Dark".

In a letter to HPL, August 1930, Howard wrote:
"A writer in the Eyrie, a Mr. O’Neail, I believe, wondered if I did not use some myth regarding this Cthulhu in 'Skull Face'. The name Kathulos might suggest that, but in reality, I merely manufactured the name at random, not being aware at the time of any legendary character named Cthulhu — if indeed there is."

However, "Skull-Face" was sent to Weird Tales sometime in the fall of 1928, if we can accept the evidence of Post Oaks and Sand Roughs in this regard, and by then apparently Howard had indeed read "The Call of Cthulhu," since he had drafted a letter to Weird Tales earlier that year saying "Mr. Lovecraft’s latest story, 'The Call of Cthulhu', is indeed a masterpiece..." In Patrice's "Atlantean Genesis" (in Kull: Exile of Atlantis), he suggests that "The Cat and the Skull" and "The Screaming Skull of Silence" were both written early in 1928: I don't know if Howard came up with "Kuthulos" before or after he read "The Call of Cthulhu" -- perhaps Patrice can shed more light on that.

At any rate, in reply to Howard's August 1930 remark about O'Neail confusing Kathulos/Cthulhu, HPL wrote: "It would be amusing to identify your Kathulos with my Cthulhu—indeed, I may so adopt him in some future black allusion."

And so that's how Kathulos came to be mentioned later in "Whisperer."

Rusty