138 replies to this topic

[docpod]

I keep the pulp flame burning 24-7. I can't help it. Now here's an idea- rewrite the Brodeur stories changing the setting from 12th Century France to Aquilonia. Could be a new-old set of pastiche stories.

Morgan

Yep. Keep the pulp flame burnin', Morgan.

Medieval Europeans burned PLENTY of incense...

[deuce]

I keep the pulp flame burning 24-7. I can't help it. Now here's an idea- rewrite the Brodeur stories changing the setting from 12th Century France to Aquilonia. Could be a new-old set of pastiche stories.

Morgan

Yep. Keep the pulp flame burnin', Morgan.

Medieval Europeans burned PLENTY of incense...

Not a bad idea at all...

I'd like to see someone try to do that with the pro-Roman tales from the pulp era.

[docpod]

Not a bad idea at all...

I'd like to see someone try to do that with the pro-Roman tales from the pulp era.

I can think of only a few pro-Roman stories from the pulps: Robert Bloch's lone sword and sorcery story "The Dark Island." Talbot Mundy hated the Romans. Arthur D. Howden Smith had a Gray Maiden story set in Britain as the Saxons were overrunning Britain and another Gray Maiden story set in the 2nd Punic War. F. van Wyck Mason's "The Barbarian" has a Celt eventually joining the Romans in the First Punic War.

Morgan

Edited by docpod, 13 July 2010 - 04:11 AM.

[deuce]

Not a bad idea at all...

I'd like to see someone try to do that with the pro-Roman tales from the pulp era.

I can think of only a few pro-Roman stories from the pulps: Robert Bloch's lone sword and sorcery story "The Dark Island." Talbot Mundy hated the Romans. Arthur D. Howden Smith had a Gray Maiden story set in Britain as the Saxons were overrunning Britain and another Gray Maiden story set in the 2nd Punic War. F. van Wyck Mason's "The Barbarian" has a Celt eventually joining the Romans in the First Punic War.

Morgan

I was being facetious and rhetorical. That said, Mundy took a hit for the whole team when his "Tros" stories were submitted to Adventure in the mid-'20s. I have no doubt they influenced REH.

[Pictish Scout]

After the descriptions of Robert E. Howard I tried to visualize (and illustrate) the Gundermen and the Bossonians.

And I came to this:


Gundermen
The Gundarmen seemed to me less renaissance because they used shields and axes, even though they wore bassinets and carried pikes.

They also seemed to fight in a compact shield wall, maybe very similar to the Saxon’s and not the sheltron of the late middle ages, I think.

That’s why I came to this version of a pure blooded, long haired, long bearded Hyborian.
Some quotes

"With the knights came what seemed a second, irregular army on tough swift ponies. These dismounted and formed their ranks on foot – stolid Bossonian archers, and keen pikemen from Gunderland, their tawny locks blowing from under their steel caps.”
The Scarlet Citadel

“No infantry was a match for the wild Gundermen (…) who, born and bred to battle, were the purest blood of all the Hyborian peoples.”
The Scarlet Citadel

Wild Gundermen? Maybe not too literally but they don’t seem regular civilized guys. It is possible they never became civilized:

"Their ways were ruder and more primitively Hyborian than those of the Aquilonians…"
Notes on Various Peoples of the Hyborian Age

Some more quotes:

“The Aquilonian host was drawn up, long serried lines of pikemen…”
The Hour of the Dragon

(A phalanx type formation?)


“…pikemen in mail coats and basinets…”
The Hour of the Dragon

”But the bolts fell short or rattled harmlessly from the overlapping shields of the Gundermen”
The Hour of the Dragon

(A shield wall or something similar to the Roman testudo?)

Bossonian

In my opinion these guys are the closest to the inspiration source: the English Bowmen.

“…Bossonians were equal to their foes, and they balanced sheer skill in archery by superiority in morale, and excellence of armor (…) The blue-bearded warrior (…) could not endure punishment as could the heavier-armored Bossonians”
The Scarlet Citadel

(So these archers wore heavier armor? Which type? In my illustration I chose to draw an English inspired helmet, mail coat, leather and…greves.)

”…archers in their leather jerkins, with their longbows in their left hand.”
The Hour of the Dragon

(No description of a heavier armor, only leather.)

”…Bossonian from the western marches, strongly built men of medium stature, in leathern jackets and iron head-pieces.”
The Hour of the Dragon

So, my Bossonian is a little shorter than the Gunderman and maybe his helmet should be a little simpler. Leather jackets don’t seem really superior to the shemite mail shirt, that’s why I placed a mail coat underneath the leather. That’s my attempt on “excellence of armor”.

Edited by Pictish Scout, 14 July 2010 - 05:09 AM.

[deuce]

Cool stuff, Scout! The "leather jacks" of the Bossonians could've been brigandines. They definitely had to be pretty sturdy to outclass the scale armour of the Shemites.

[Pictish Scout]

I found only one mention of brigandine in The Hour of the Dragon but it was Nemedian pikemen armor in contrast to the “lether jerkins”, so I think a distinction was intended here between the two.

Howard mentions these two types of armor in the same sentence:

”…Knights in shining armor with their pennons streaming above their helmets, pikemen in steel caps and brigandines, crossbowmen in leather jerkins.”
The Hour of the Dragon

The Brigandine is also mentioned in The Scarlet Citadel worn by Kothian pikemen (or were they Ophirian?)
EDIT - or Gundermen mercenaries "next to Hyperboreans, the tallest of the Hyborian races". Howard describes these pikemen as "giants".

He (Tsotha-lanti) passed through the lines of the pikemen, and the giants in their steel caps and brigandines shrank back fearfully…
The Scarlet Citadel

There’s a description of a quick mobilization and recruitment of Aquilonian troops when Conan marches to break the siege of Shamar.

It is interesting to note that when he arrives at Shamar he is followed by Gunderland pikemen and Bossonian archers.

These soldiers were already at the service of local nobles across Aquilonia as professional soldiers or mercenaries. So it seems it was usual for a noble to have his own retinue of Gundermen and Bossonians.

”With these nucleus of an army he had raced southward, sweeping the countryside for recruits and for mounts. Nobles of Tamar and the surrounding countryside had augmented his forces, and he had levied recruits from every village and castle along his roads (…)The remnants of the mercenaries and professional soldiers in the trains of loyal noblemen made up his infantry – five thousand archers and four thousand pikemen.”
The Scarlet Citadel

I assume the archers and pikemen are respectively Bossonians and Gundermen. So Conan doesn’t need to travel far to get these fine chaps.

EDITED
Also:

" Gunderland mercenaries were to be found in all the armies of the Hyborian kingdoms, and in Zamora and the more powerful kingdoms of Shem."
Notes on Various Peolples of the Hyborian Age

That may explain their service to the Aquilonian noble houses and even in the armies of Koth and Ophir.

Edited by Pictish Scout, 14 July 2010 - 04:54 PM.

[Taranaich]

Absolutely fantastic work, Scout!

By the way, where are the references to Gundermen axes? I've seen them with spears, pikes and swords, but not axes. unless I'm missing something...

It is interesting that Conan got access to Gundermen & Bossonian so quickly, but I'd guess they'd already congregated down south under Trocero's banner to repel the Kothic-Ophirean invasion while Conan was incarcerated. Or, as you say, some of the barons already had them. Maybe Trocero himself had them to complement his Poitanian knights.

It's an interesting possibility that the Kothian pikemen were Gundermen, but I don't think they were, simply because they're always referred to as "Kothian Pikemen": if Howard intended them to be Gundermen too, I can't help but think he'd mention it.

There are two possibilities for Koth's giant pikemen: either they're of a population in Koth with mixed Shemite/Stygian blood (Shemites mixed with Stygian blood gives rise to giants, possibly like Khumbanigash) or they're Hyperboreans. The Kothians obviously have some Shemite blood, as in the hill-people in Khoraja: perhaps there were remnants of the old Stygian Empire which were absorbed into Koth. We know the Hyperboreans worked as mercenaries as in "Black Colossus" and elsewhere, and Constantius being a Kothic voivode leads to me thinking there's some sort of cultural exchange going on between the two nations - much like Byzantium and the Rus.

[Pictish Scout]

For the Gundermen axes (I didn't find any references to Swords though) there’s a passage I interpret as the pikemen breaking the knights charge with spears and killing them on the ground with axes:

”On came the knights, with waving plumes and dipping lances. Through a whistling cloud of arrows they plowed to break like a thundering wave on the blistering wall of spears and shields. Axes rose and fell above the plumed helmets, spears thrust upward, bringing down horses and riders(…) They held their formation unshaken; over their gleaming ranks flowed the great lion banner, and at the tip of the wedge a giant figure in black armor roared and smote like a hurricane, with dripping axe that split steel and bone alike”
The Hour of the Dragon page 247 - The Bloody Crown of Conan

I think the axes belong to Gundermen and not the knights (which are charging with their lances!). Gundermen are using axes for close quarters combat. Even their King, leading their unit in person, uses the same weapon.

It seems the ones using swords are the Bossonian archers:

"It was a strong position. His flanks could not be turned, for that would mean climbing the steep, wooded hills in the teeth of the arrows and swords of the Bossonians."
The Hour of the Dragon page 245 - The Bloody Crown of Conan

It's an interesting possibility that the Kothian pikemen were Gundermen, but I don't think they were, simply because they're always referred to as "Kothian Pikemen": if Howard intended them to be Gundermen too, I can't help but think he'd mention it.

Yes, I think you may be right. Maybe they were just tall men.

Edited by Pictish Scout, 15 July 2010 - 01:40 AM.

[Ironhand]

Axes rose and fell above the plumed helmets, spears thrust upward, bringing down horses and riders

If the plumed helmets are being worn by riders, and the axes are being wielded by footmen, then how can the axes be above the plumed helmets? I submit that the axes are not short-hafted handaxes, but halberds and great-axes, which are a natural concomitant of a pike formation.

[Kortoso]

Maybe spears first and axes to finish the job?

[Amra]

Axes rose and fell above the plumed helmets, spears thrust upward, bringing down horses and riders

If the plumed helmets are being worn by riders, and the axes are being wielded by footmen, then how can the axes be above the plumed helmets? I submit that the axes are not short-hafted handaxes, but halberds and great-axes, which are a natural concomitant of a pike formation.

That is how I have always imagined that scene.

[Taranaich]

For the Gundermen axes (I didn't find any references to Swords though) there?s a passage I interpret as the pikemen breaking the knights charge with spears and killing them on the ground with axes:

?On came the knights, with waving plumes and dipping lances. Through a whistling cloud of arrows they plowed to break like a thundering wave on the blistering wall of spears and shields. Axes rose and fell above the plumed helmets, spears thrust upward, bringing down horses and riders(?) They held their formation unshaken; over their gleaming ranks flowed the great lion banner, and at the tip of the wedge a giant figure in black armor roared and smote like a hurricane, with dripping axe that split steel and bone alike?
The Hour of the Dragon page 247 - The Bloody Crown of Conan

I think the axes belong to Gundermen and not the knights (which are charging with their lances!). Gundermen are using axes for close quarters combat. Even their King, leading their unit in person, uses the same weapon.

Seems a reasonable assumption, though like Ironhand, I'd suggest they were almost poleaxes, though functionally still referred to as axes. Something like the Danish Axe, or the Sparth or Lochaber axes: six foot hafts and axe heads.

It seems the ones using swords are the Bossonian archers:

Good catch: however, the Gundermen also use swords (and daggers) in "Wolves Beyond the Border":

... half a dozen Gundermen guards, compactly-built men with yellow hair cut square and confined under steel caps, corselets of chain mail, and polished leg-pieces. They were girt with swords and daggers yellow-haired men with fair complections and steely eyes and an accent differing greatly from the natives of the Westermarck. They were sturdy fighters, ruthless and well-disciplined, and very popular as guardsmen among the land-owners of the frontier.

They would seem to be used more for guard duty than battlefield duty, though I wouldn't rule it out.

[Pictish Scout]

... half a dozen Gundermen guards, compactly-built men with yellow hair cut square and confined under steel caps, corselets of chain mail, and polished leg-pieces. They were girt with swords and daggers yellow-haired men with fair complections and steely eyes and an accent differing greatly from the natives of the Westermarck. They were sturdy fighters, ruthless and well-disciplined, and very popular as guardsmen among the land-owners of the frontier

I missed that one! Swords, daggers and polished leg-pieces (greves?)

With long axes Gundermen would look like Huscarls!

I think Gundermen were everywhere, serving as mercs, noble guards, etc.

Edited by Pictish Scout, 16 July 2010 - 04:37 PM.

[Axerules]

Fine job, Scout. Thanks for sharing.

[Pictish Scout]

It is interesting how both Aquilonia and Nemedia have Dragons as royal symbols. Maybe we should pay more atention to the existence ( real or mythical) of dragons in the Hyborian Age. Nemedia's dragon was scarlet. Maybe it has something to do with the arthurian legend. Is the dragon a Hyborean symbol, that survived from the tribal age? Is it from Acheron? Is it an ancient serpent like god ( Set)? or an actual animal alive when Hyborean migrated from the north but now extinct?

There's no evidence of the dragon being a "common" symbol from the primal days of the Hyborians. The dragon appears to have been more of a "southern" animal. As I pointed out in my annotations to The Scarlet Citadel, it was almost certainly a dragon that Pelias used to transport Conan to Tamar. Dragons are also considered "real" (and "three-horned", just like in The Pool of the Black One) in The Shadow Kingdom. Dragons are also mentioned in Wolfshead, The Servants of Bit-Yakin and The Moon of Skulls. Despite what some have said, REH appears to have had no problem with the concept of dragons being "real" (in a fantasy-fiction sense). No more than he had a problem with the concepts of vampires and werewolves.

Back to the Howardian Dragon!

There's a passage in The Shadow Kingdom, where Brule is talking with Kull about the ancient secret wars between men and serpent men. He says:
" Men took for a sign and a standard the figure of the flying dragon, the winged dinosaur, a monster of past ages, which was the greatest foe of the serpent" - The Shadow Kingdom, page 36 - Kull, Exile of Atlantis, Del Rey.

I think these dragons are absolutely real in Kull mythos, as are the serpent men. And since I believe Kull and Conan inhabit the same world; Dragons are a reality in the Hyborian age too, as Dinosaurs (and some animals we thought were extinct) are a reality in our own age.

It is interesting how the Dragon is used as a standard against the "serpent". Are the dragons of Aquilonia and Nemedia heraldry an echo of that forgotten past? Even before their Hyborian past, a symbol they adopted from the indigenous population of the West, or from their own "genetic" memory... or both, since the dragon was a common symbol to mankind.

Edited by Pictish Scout, 04 August 2010 - 03:56 PM.

[Gozer]

I really wish you'd quit bringing up Carolingian France as being the "Aquilonia of Conan", because there's nothing to support it. That's like saying the England of today is the same as that of Alfred the Great.

i think you may be misunderstanding me, deuce. I didn't say that Aquilonia was like Carolingian France; i was just pointing out that some people DO think that. I definitely think the Carolingians were too primitive to be Aquilonians. Like I said earlier, Aquilonia and Nemedia should be primarily based on France and England circa 1100s-1300s A.D.

I did compare the Carolingians to the early Hyborian kingdoms mentioned in The Hyborian Age essay, but this would be long before Conan's time. However, I also compared the Carolingians to the Nemedian Aesir mentioned in the same essay. Whenever I think of "half-civilized" barbarians, i sort of picture the early Franks, Goths, Anglo-Saxons, etc: hardcore warriors only a few generations removed from pagan savagery.

The "situation" between the Aquilonians and Picts is just as similar as that of the English settlers to the Gaelic Irish during the reign of Elizabeth I. As I've said, REH was well-read in history and grasped the many similar events/themes over the centuries.

I agree. Like i said, there are many things throughout Western history that could be applicable to REH's Hyborian cultures.

Edited by Gozer, 10 August 2010 - 08:48 AM.

[Gozer]

Saying that your bias is toward a movie which gave slight regard to Robert E. Howard doesn't strengthen your position. That flick VERY strongly favored certain cultures. It wasn't always a "mish-mash". Milius had strong views and biases. They weren't always the same as those held by Robert E. Howard.

I also see Hyborian Age cultures as (at least) slightly different from the cultures that inspired them (as REH saw them). THAT is a huge difference, in my mind, from those who choose to see the Nordheimr as "clones" of Dark Age Vikings or Aquilonians as being "Roman" clones. After all of that is said and done, what Howard wrote about those cultures and their probable models is what counts.

Again, i agree. My bias isn't towards the movie(s); I was just pointing out that that was my first experience with Conan's world, and that I kinda dug their approach to creating all the wardrobes and architecture: basically, to mix different elements to create something unique, and not just a straight analogue to real-world history. For all the things that the first film got wrong (and they are legion), I actually liked Ron Cobb's work.

For the Aquilonians, we should use the High Middle Ages as a base, and THEN tweak some things to make it uniquely Hyborian. So, an Aquilonian man-at-arms shouldn't look like an Anglo-Norman man-at-arms or anything like that, but they are vaguely similar.

[deuce]

i think you may be misunderstanding me, deuce. I didn't say that Aquilonia was like Carolingian France; i was just pointing out that some people DO think that. I definitely think the Carolingians were too primitive to be Aquilonians. Like I said earlier, Aquilonia and Nemedia should be primarily based on France and England circa 1100s-1300s A.D.

My apologies, Gozer. Wasn't in the best mood that night, though that's no excuse. You're a keen student of REH's pseudo-history. I see now what you meant.

I did compare the Carolingians to the early Hyborian kingdoms mentioned in The Hyborian Age essay, but this would be long before Conan's time. However, I also compared the Carolingians to the Nemedian Aesir mentioned in the same essay. Whenever I think of "half-civilized" barbarians, i sort of picture the early Franks, Goths, Anglo-Saxons, etc: hardcore warriors only a few generations removed from pagan savagery.

I think it VERY likely that REH looked upon those Germanic tribes in a similar way. Acheron essentially fills the role of a "sorcerous Rome". As for the final days of the Hyborian kingdoms, I have to wonder if REH didn't almost look upon them more as akin to the Renaissance (and even Napoleonic) kingdoms of Europe. The Turanians/Hyrkanians steamrolling the Hyborian lands is like an alternate ending to "The Shadow of the Vulture". The Hyborians, and Aquilonia in particular, aren't really "decadent" in the same way that Howard portrayed Rome. More like highly arrogant. They were still militarily sound and expansive, which can't really be said about Rome in its final two centuries.

Edited by deuce, 10 August 2010 - 05:35 PM.

[Fernando]

I'm re-reading Wolves Beyond the Border, and I always supposed names like "Gault Hagar's son" meant "the son of Gault Hagar", and the same for the other Bossonians. However, it came a huge doubt to my mind. Did REH mean "Gault, son of Hagar", instead of "the son of Gault Hagar"?