12 replies to this topic

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I've meant to start this thread for quite some time. The once-impending, now here Kull mini-series and Spartan's thread on the dubious presence of Mu and Lemuria on Hyborian Age maps and other things kept nagging at me to start a topic like this. Now, with Vilalt posing some pertinent questions, I feel that I can't put it off any longer (thanks, Vilalt ).

Mu and Lemuria figure into some of Howard's earliest yarns, like Men of the Shadows, The Shadow Kingdom and "The Isle of Eons" fragment. "IoE" is quite interesting because REH kept coming back to it, rewriting it over a span of several years (something he very rarely did). In that fragment we can find "facts" about Howard's Thurian Age that we can find nowhere else. We can also see Howard's evolving views regarding Mu and Lemuria (the histories of which are major concerns in that story).

As I'll show in future posts, "Mu", as REH used the concept, was a very new thing when he began using the "lost Pacific continent" as a background/setting within his yarns. The "Lemuria" concept had been around for about a century, but Howard radically redefined it for his stories. It would appear his concepts of both landmasses evolved somewhat over the 1925-1932 time-period.

Was the continent of Mu still above the waves when the "Great Cataclysm" struck? Perhaps not. Were Mu and Lemuria one and the same in the Howard stories? Almost certainly not, though they were closely connected. Was the Lemuria described in various Howard yarns truly "barbaric", as depicted in the Hyborian Age essay? Plenty of questions, and maybe some possible answers.

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Hey God-King of Lethe! Welcome to the forum. In his letters, Howard mentioned maybe moving to Australia (though his interest in the Aborigines seems negligible). On the other hand, REH was interested in the Caribbean and Central America. The Wastrel had to have reached at least the Lesser Antilles (PoTBO), judging from its "weeks" at sea. In yarns like Marchers of Valhalla, The Thing on the Roof, The Thunder-Rider and The Gods of Bal-Sagoth, Howard places "pre-Indian" peoples curiously similar to the Stygians in the Caribbean and Mesoamerica. Of course, there's the "nameless continent" references in the Miller letter and the Hyborian Age essay.
Hope that helps.

I have the Coming of Conan the Cimmerian,but I don't recall reading anything about the western continent in the essay last time,though that was a while ago,and my Conan books are in storage at the moment with no way to get them anytime soon.

The first page of the Hyborian Age essay ("CoC", p.381), third paragraph:

"They (the non-Thurians/proto-Stygians) apparently came from a shadowy and nameless continent lying somewhere east of the Lemurian Islands."

Placing the Lemurian Isles is problematic, but most likely (judging from the references by REH) they were a large archipelago situated 30 degrees either side of the 180th meridian and between the 15th and 30th parallels.

From The Conquering Sword of Conan (the "Miller letter"), p.361:

"He (Conan) even visited a nameless continent in the western hemisphere and roamed among the islands adjacent to it."

Once again, a "nameless continent". Some have suggested Mu as a candidate for the "nameless continent". There are definite problems with this interpretation. First and foremost, Robert E. Howard "named" Mu several times in his yarns. That's kind of the opposite of "nameless". Secondly, every indication that we have from Howard is that Mu lay south of Lemuria and roughly on the same longitude. That rules out the "nameless continent" that lies "somewhere east of the Lemurian Islands" (and therefore, west of the west/"Thurian" coast of the Thurian continent). Also, it would definitely appear that the "nameless continent" in the Miller letter is Central/South America, so how could the "nameless continent" ALSO be (the much-named) Mu? In the yarns I mentioned above, as well as in tales like The Black Stone, The Valley of the Lost and the "Nekht Semerkhet" fragment, the indications are very strong that a "continent" that included TX, the Gulf Coast, the Caribbean islands as well as Central/South America was inhabited by a "pre-Indian" people (very likely related to the Stygians) from a very early date, quite probably from pre-Thurian times. Even senile old Gonar (in Men of the Shadows) mentions a "southern continent" ("southern" in relation to the Pictish Isles).

Hope this clears up your "western continent" questions.

*Originally from the "Mu and Lemuria: Did they survive into Conan's time?" thread.

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Supposedly, the only remaining portion of the Lemurian Isles are the tops of mountians still above the waves off the coast of Khitai. DOn't know where I read that, maybe that Conan hardover that came out a year or so ago.

Hey Zula! Good to see ya back! To the best of my knowledge (w/o rechecking), the only two yarns that mention Pacific islands that were once Lemurian mountaintops would be Men of the Shadows and The Curse of the Golden Skull. Gonar, in "MotS" seems to be talking about the Hawaiian Islands. In "Skull", the explorer/archaeologist appears to have found an uncharted tropical island. Basically, it looks like REH envisioned an archipelago stretching from the Hawaiian Islands to Micronesia. I don't see any way that Howard didn't figure in Pohnpei (Ponape) and its ruins of Nan Madol as being a remnant of Lemuria. Pohnpei was quite famous in the early 20th century due to A. Merritt's The Moon Pool, which posits it as the last bastion of "Muria".

While, IMO, Lemuria would be a little closer to the Asian coast than to the Pictish Isles (the future US/Canada "West Coast"), I think the closeness has been exaggerated by pasticheurs, etc... In the Hyborian Age essay, REH notes that there was only occasional contact between the Lemurians and the "proto-Stygians". This doesn't really seem to imply close proximity. Meanwhile, we know that the Lemurians had serious conflicts with the Picts AND ruled colonies on what would be the "Gulf Coast" AND raided Atlantis.

Probably a big reason that we hear about the Lemurians in east Asia is because the ones who fled west during the Cataclysm died. The upheaval in the Pictish Isles seems to have wiped out the vast majority of those tough bastards (the Picts, that is), so it's hard to see how Lemurian refugees could've washed-up on those shaky lands and survived (though it's possible). If they'd fled farther west (which might've been impossible due to the ongoing uplift), I bet that their former colonial subjects gave 'em a warm, red welcome. So, the east Asian coast (which at least was stable) was one of the few viable options.

*Originally from the "Mu and Lemuria: Did they survive..." thread.

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James Churchward basically invented the "Mu-concept" as REH, HPL, CAS and others used it. Here's a link:
http://en.wikipedia....ames_Churchward
For those playing along at home, the historian/archaeologist de Bourbourg came up with the word (supposedly from the "Maya") and then le Plongeon applied it to Atlantis. It was Churchward, in his book, The Lost Continent of Mu (published in 1925), who first came up with the concept of a vast, now-sunken continent (named "Mu" AND far larger than Australia) located in the central Pacific. Churchward never implies any link between Mu and the (small) continent of Australia (nor "Indonesia"). A big stumbling-block for the Australia = Mu equation is that Australia is STILL above the waves of the three oceans that surround it.

Robert E. Howard doesn't seem to have had any time for the "Australia = Mu" thing, either. In the "Isle of the Eons" fragment (which REH worked on and rewrote over a period of four years), we learn the vast majority of what REH had to say about Mu. Every indication is that Mu (in Howard's mind) occupied the central/south Pacific at a very distant date and then sank (very possibly before the Lemurian Isles and Atlantis). While there is a mention of warriors "of Mu" in The Shadow Kingdom, no mention of the actual continent is ever made, nor is there any mention of it in the Hyborian Age essay. This could very easily be analogous to the way REH calls long-time emigrants from Atlantis (and their descendants) "Atlanteans", despite the fact that the continent of Atlantis had sunk below the waves long before. HP Lovecraft wrote a tale about Mu called Out of the Aeons. In it, he locates one portion of Mu as lying somewhere between New Zealand and Chile. Once again, the south (-east) Pacific. This tale cites REH's Von Junzt and the Unaussprechlichen Kulten as THE major source on Mu. (Note: the "Black Book/UK" also, apparently, is the source for modern info about the Hyborian Age, according to REH.) REH was quite proud of this inclusion in a story crafted by an author that he highly respected. Nor does he seem to have had a problem with HPL's placement of Mu (and why should he, since that is where Churchward placed it?).

Hope that helps.

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The "Lemurian Isles" are clearly west of the Thurian continent, which is proto-Eurasia, but they don't seem to be described as really close to America/the "nameless continent" (in that letter to Miller, Howard talks about American islands that seem to be different).

Hey Vilalt! Good question. The Lemurian Isles "are clearly west of the Thurian continent", but they're also clearly east, as well. The "nameless continent" IS pretty clearly the Americas (in some form). According to all the clues at hand, the Pictish Isles were where the Rockies/Cascades/Sierra Nevadas are now. The "islands" that REH spoke of were very likely associated with those mentioned in The Marchers of Valhalla and Gods of Bal-Sagoth.

Maybe they're a (now sunken) extension to the west of Macaronesia (Canaries/Cape Verde/Azores)?

That wouldn't appear to be the case. As you've noted, the "Thurian continent" was obviously centered on the present Eurasian landmass. The continent of Atlantis lies just west of the Seven Empires (the westernmost lands of the Thurian continent). The Pictish Isles lie west of Atlantis. The Lemurian Isles lie west of the Pictish Isles. Considering the fact that Thurian Age kingdoms like Valusia and Farsun appear to have extended far beyond the present contours of western Europe (even somewhat beyond those of the westernmost Hyborian Age lands), there just isn't room to put the Lemurian Isles anywhere near Macaronesia (plus, "traditionally", Lemuria has always been sited in the Pacific or Indian oceans). Atlantis would've occupied that area, IMO. Howard states that the Lemurians were the ancestors of the Hyrkanians and Khitans. Logically, the Lemurians would've been closer to the eastern littoral of the Thurian continent than to the western. Plus, the Pictish Isles (the later western North America) would have to be closer to the Thurian continent (as would Atlantis) than the Lemurian Isles. IMO, the Lemurian Isles stretched over an arc in the central "Pacific" just north of the equator.

[Vilalt]

Ah, OK. You're right that Lemuria needs to be Pacific/Indian Ocean.

I always mentally associated Atlantis with one of the large European islands (probably southern England or Wales, depending on how warm the Thurian Age was; Howard puts Kull's era at 100,000 BC - a not particularly chilly part of the last glaciation, so at least some of England maybe was ice-free?). That makes sense, though.

Out of curiosity, why do you say Hyborian Age lands extend farther west than modern Europe? Most of the H. A. maps look to me like the western end's just Europe with Britain/Ireland fused to the continent. I think the sea levels were lower in the Hyborian Age, since it would have been bitterly cold. Conan's time has got to be colder than Kull's if we're trying to line this up with real-world history at all. Cimmeria is cold and dank, but it may not in fact be that far north - probably near where the northern shore of the Black Sea is now, south of the ice.

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Ah, OK. You're right that Lemuria needs to be Pacific/Indian Ocean.
I always mentally associated Atlantis with one of the large European islands (probably southern England or Wales, depending on how warm the Thurian Age was; Howard puts Kull's era at 100,000 BC - a not particularly chilly part of the last glaciation, so at least some of England maybe was ice-free?). That makes sense, though.

Hey Vilalt! Southern England and Wales are on the same island. From all indications, the entire area occupied by Ireland, Great Britain and the Isle of Man was part of the Thurian continent. All of that seems to have been ice-free. Attempting to link REH's Thurian and Hyborian ages to what we know about the time-periods during which Howard states they existed isn't always fruitful, IMO. When they match up, that's great, but when what we "know" conflicts with what REH said, then I say Howard trumps it, at least in regard to his own literary universe.

Out of curiosity, why do you say Hyborian Age lands extend farther west than modern Europe? Most of the H. A. maps look to me like the western end's just Europe with Britain/Ireland fused to the continent.

I don't think I said that, exactly. Obviously, what is called the "Celtic Shelf" was above the waves during the Hyborian Age. I do believe I said that the Thurian Age coastline extended past that of the Hyborian Age coastline. That's what REH implies.

I think the sea levels were lower in the Hyborian Age, since it would have been bitterly cold. Conan's time has got to be colder than Kull's if we're trying to line this up with real-world history at all. Cimmeria is cold and dank, but it may not in fact be that far north - probably near where the northern shore of the Black Sea is now, south of the ice.

There's nothing to indicate that sea-levels were lower OR that it was colder during Conan's era. In fact, the Pictish Wilderness, which comprised an area on the same latitude as France, seems to have boasted a few tropical/sub-tropical fauna.
Cimmeria, according to the maps we have from REH, was on the same latitude as northern Ireland, Scotland and southern Denmark. My thoughts on where Atlantis and the Seven Empires were located are here: http://www.conan.com...?showtopic=4604

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If anyone knows of publications/articles/books relating to Lemuria and Mu BEFORE 1927, feel free to discuss them here.

Howard drew his inspirations from various sources.

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In the process of doing some Muvian reasearch (possibly for a future project), I stumbled upon this:


http://www.newdawnma...unken-continent

Haughton is a qualified archaeologist who specializes in writing about "mysterious" history. As opposed to the wild-eyed quackery we usually see, his books are pretty level-headed and accurate.

For Howardian purposes, the whole Lemuria/Australia thing can be thrown right out the window. REH's concept of Lemuria was radically different than that proposed by Haeckle. However, what I really like about the article linked above is the very thorough treatment given to the entire history of the Lemuria/Mu concept. I've never seen the entire topic (with relevant up-to-date news) handled better.

I hope Haughton's article will serve as a handy primer for anyone wanting to get a grip on what's been said about Lemuria/Mu over the last 100+yrs.

One thing in the article that I want to "correct" somewhat is this:

It was James Churchward who first posited the theory that the site of Nan Modal, on Pohnpei Island in the North Pacific Ocean, was one of the seven cities of ancient Mu / Lemuria.

That's basically true. However, A. Merritt, in his novel, The Moon Pool (1919), posited Nan Madol as the point of entry to the underground world of "Muria". Thus, IMO, Merritt served as the (or "a") link between Blavatsky's "Lemuria" and Churchward's The Lost Continent of Mu, which came out 7yrs after Merritt's novel.

[theagenes]

In the process of doing some Muvian reasearch (possibly for a future project), I stumbled upon this:


http://www.newdawnma...unken-continent

Haughton is a qualified archaeologist who specializes in writing about "mysterious" history. As opposed to the wild-eyed quackery we usually see, his books are pretty level-headed and accurate.

For Howardian purposes, the whole Lemuria/Australia thing can be thrown right out the window. REH's concept of Lemuria was radically different than that proposed by Haeckle. However, what I really like about the article linked above is the very thorough treatment given to the entire history of the Lemuria/Mu concept. I've never seen the entire topic (with relevant up-to-date news) handled better.

I hope Haughton's article will serve as a handy primer for anyone wanting to get a grip on what's been said about Lemuria/Mu over the last 100+yrs.

One thing in the article that I want to "correct" somewhat is this:

It was James Churchward who first posited the theory that the site of Nan Modal, on Pohnpei Island in the North Pacific Ocean, was one of the seven cities of ancient Mu / Lemuria.

That's basically true. However, A. Merritt, in his novel, The Moon Pool (1919), posited Nan Madol as the point of entry to the underground world of "Muria". Thus, IMO, Merritt served as the (or "a") link between Blavatsky's "Lemuria" and Churchward's The Lost Continent of Mu, which came out 7yrs after Merritt's novel.

Not a bad historiogrphy of Lemuria/Mu though he makes a couple of minor mistakes.

Here's what I came up with for a bibliography for Lemuria and Mu pre-1927, annotated and in chronological order. These are the major works, though there are a lot of minor theosophical and occult publications that mention Lemuria.


Non-Fiction
Sclater, P. "The Mammals of Madagascar" Quarterly Journal of Science (1864) [Indian ocean Lemuria first named]
Brasseur de Bourbourg, C. E. Manuscrit Troano (1869-70) [erroneous translation of Troano Codex where "Mu" first appears]
Wallace, A. R. The Geographical Distibution of Animals (1876) [discusses Sclater's Indian Ocean Lemuria]
Sinnett, A. P. Esoteric Buddhism (1883) [First appearance of Theosophical Atlantis and Lemuria]
Haeckel, E. The History of Creation (1884) [Indian Ocean Lemuria as homeland of mankind]
Jacolliot, L. Occult Science in India (1884) [Pacific Lemuria; one of Blavatsky's dubious sources]
Blavatsky, H. The Secret Doctrine (1888)[Theosophical Lemurians as Third Root Race]
Le Plongeon, A. Queen Moo and the Egyptian Sphinx (1896) [based on de Bournbourg equates Mu with Atlantis]
Scott-Elliot, w. The Story of Atlantis (1896) [Theosophical; Lemuria in Pacific and Indian Oceans]
Phelon, W. Our Story of Atlantis (1903) [Theosophical; briefly discusses Lemuria]
Scott-Elliot, W. Lost Lemuria (1904) [Theosophical; more detail on Lemuria; both S-E books based on past life memories of Leadbeater]
Anderson, J. Riddles of Prehistoric Times (1911) [Chapter on Lemuria; following Haeckel]
Steiner, R. The submerged Continents of Atlantis and Lemuria (1911) [Theosophical; based on Leadbeater again]
Besant, A. and C. Leadbeater Man: Whence, How, and Whither (1913) [Theosophical; Leadbeater in his own words]
Steiner, R. Atlantis and Lemuria (1923) [Revised edition of earlier book]
Brown, J. M. Riddle of the Pacific (1924) [Easter Island as remnent of Pacific continent]
Spence, L. Atlantis in America (1925) [chapter on Lemuria based on Brown's book]
Scott-Elliot, W. The Story of Atlantis and the Lost Lemuria (1925) [combined edition]
Churchward, J. Lost Continent of Mu (1926) [Mu as Pacific continent]

Fiction
Scott, G. F. The Last Lemurian (1898)
Oliver, F. A Dweller on Two Planets (1905) [First time Lemuria is connected with Mt. Shasta]
Merritt, A. "The Moon Pool" All-Story Weekly (1918)
Merritt, A. "Conquest of the Moon Pool" All-Story Weekly (1919)

[deuce]

In the process of doing some Muvian reasearch (possibly for a future project), I stumbled upon this:


http://www.newdawnma...unken-continent

Haughton is a qualified archaeologist who specializes in writing about "mysterious" history. As opposed to the wild-eyed quackery we usually see, his books are pretty level-headed and accurate.

For Howardian purposes, the whole Lemuria/Australia thing can be thrown right out the window. REH's concept of Lemuria was radically different than that proposed by Haeckle. However, what I really like about the article linked above is the very thorough treatment given to the entire history of the Lemuria/Mu concept. I've never seen the entire topic (with relevant up-to-date news) handled better.

I hope Haughton's article will serve as a handy primer for anyone wanting to get a grip on what's been said about Lemuria/Mu over the last 100+yrs.

One thing in the article that I want to "correct" somewhat is this:

It was James Churchward who first posited the theory that the site of Nan Modal, on Pohnpei Island in the North Pacific Ocean, was one of the seven cities of ancient Mu / Lemuria.

That's basically true. However, A. Merritt, in his novel, The Moon Pool (1919), posited Nan Madol as the point of entry to the underground world of "Muria". Thus, IMO, Merritt served as the (or "a") link between Blavatsky's "Lemuria" and Churchward's The Lost Continent of Mu, which came out 7yrs after Merritt's novel.

Not a bad historiogrphy of Lemuria/Mu though he makes a couple of minor mistakes.

Here's what I came up with for a bibliography for Lemuria and Mu pre-1927, annotated and in chronological order. These are the major works, though there are a lot of minor theosophical and occult publications that mention Lemuria.


Non-Fiction
Sclater, P. "The Mammals of Madagascar" Quarterly Journal of Science (1864) [Indian ocean Lemuria first named]
Brasseur de Bourbourg, C. E. Manuscrit Troano (1869-70) [erroneous translation of Troano Codex where "Mu" first appears]
Wallace, A. R. The Geographical Distibution of Animals (1876) [discusses Sclater's Indian Ocean Lemuria]
Sinnett, A. P. Esoteric Buddhism (1883) [First appearance of Theosophical Atlantis and Lemuria]
Haeckel, E. The History of Creation (1884) [Indian Ocean Lemuria as homeland of mankind]
Jacolliot, L. Occult Science in India (1884) [Pacific Lemuria; one of Blavatsky's dubious sources]
Blavatsky, H. The Secret Doctrine (1888)[Theosophical Lemurians as Third Root Race]
Le Plongeon, A. Queen Moo and the Egyptian Sphinx (1896) [based on de Bournbourg equates Mu with Atlantis]
Scott-Elliot, w. The Story of Atlantis (1896) [Theosophical; Lemuria in Pacific and Indian Oceans]
Phelon, W. Our Story of Atlantis (1903) [Theosophical; briefly discusses Lemuria]
Scott-Elliot, W. Lost Lemuria (1904) [Theosophical; more detail on Lemuria; both S-E books based on past life memories of Leadbeater]
Anderson, J. Riddles of Prehistoric Times (1911) [Chapter on Lemuria; following Haeckel]
Steiner, R. The submerged Continents of Atlantis and Lemuria (1911) [Theosophical; based on Leadbeater again]
Besant, A. and C. Leadbeater Man: Whence, How, and Whither (1913) [Theosophical; Leadbeater in his own words]
Steiner, R. Atlantis and Lemuria (1923) [Revised edition of earlier book]
Brown, J. M. Riddle of the Pacific (1924) [Easter Island as remnent of Pacific continent]
Spence, L. Atlantis in America (1925) [chapter on Lemuria based on Brown's book]
Scott-Elliot, W. The Story of Atlantis and the Lost Lemuria (1925) [combined edition]
Churchward, J. Lost Continent of Mu (1926) [Mu as Pacific continent]

Fiction
Scott, G. F. The Last Lemurian (1898)
Oliver, F. A Dweller on Two Planets (1905) [First time Lemuria is connected with Mt. Shasta]
Merritt, A. "The Moon Pool" All-Story Weekly (1918)
Merritt, A. "Conquest of the Moon Pool" All-Story Weekly (1919)

Awesome list, Theagenes. Thanks. However, there's also this from "Paul Schliemann", in his "How I Discovered the Lost Atlantis" (1912):

"When the star Bal fell on the place where is now only sea and sky the Seven Cities with their Golden Gates and Transparent Temples quivered and shook like the leaves of a tree in storm. And behold a flood of fire and smoke arose from the palaces. Agony and cries of the multitude filled the air. They sought refuge in their temples and citadels. And the wise Mu, the hieratic of Ra-Mu, arose and said to them: 'Did not I predict all this?' And the women and the men in their precious stones and shining garments lamented: 'Mu, save us.' And Mu replied: 'You shall die together with your slaves and your riches and from your ashes will arise new nations. If they forget they are superior, not because of what they put on, but of what they put out, the same lot will befall them!' Flame and smoke choked the words of Mu. The land and its inhabitants were torn to pieces and swallowed by the depths in a few months."

To me, he's just riffing on Le Plongeon and some Theosophy. However, Churchward did quote that in TLCoM.

[theagenes]

Nice, I didn't think about Schlieman because it was an Atlantis book. That raises a good though, There might be other Atlantis books between the time of Le Plongeon (or even de Bourbourg?) and Churchward that use Mu in reference to Atlantis rather than Lemuria/Pacific continent. Scott-Elliot actually does this too, equating Le Plongeon's "Mu" of the Troano Codex with Poseidonis.

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Nice, I didn't think about Schlieman because it was an Atlantis book. That raises a good point though, There might be other Atlantis books between the time of Le Plongeon (or even de Bourbourg?) and Churchward that use Mu in reference to Atlantis rather than Lemuria/Pacific continent. Scott-Elliot actually does this too, equating Le Plongeon's "Mu" of the Troano Codex with Poseidonis.

It's possible. Like I've mentioned to you before, there are people out there who swear that Blavatsky mentioned "Mu". I haven't seen that. Nothing to base it on, but I think "Schliemann" was on the cutting edge of that in 1912, one reason Churchward quoted him.

Some other things that struck me about that passage...

"the star Bal fell": were there other sources before "Schliemann" implying that an extraterrestrial object brought about Atlantis' fall?

"Transparent Temples": this was something Churchward definitely used in TLCoM (with modifications). Clark Ashton Smith then used that in one of his tales. Was "Schliemann" or Theosophy the source?

Plenty more to research.