64 replies to this topic

[Gulbrand]

I'm no lawyer, but even though the story is in public domain, I think you might have problems with the trademark (Paradox owns the character Conan). As far as I had understood, the public domain part only means that the stories this applies to could be republished in their original form, but I may have gotten this wrong.

Anyway, as presented in press releases, the option Millenium holds only covers film production, not TV as far as I can see (unlike the Bran Mak Morn contract). It may of course still have a clause against a live action TV production, though. Of course you might feel that taking out a license would costs too much anyway. Just adding my two cents.

I have not seen the Colour of Magic (have kind of burned out on Pratchett), but loved "Rome", so if you guys are planning on doing something on that scale with that level of skill on Conan I sincerely hope it pans out.

[Odoakris]

If they are going to adapt an original REH tale, they don't have to use the name "Conan" in the title at all. The REH title of the story would be much cooler. Such a movie could simply be called "Rogues In The House" or "The Frost Giant's Daughter". Every fan of REH will know immediately what it is all about anyway...

I think it would be a far more interesting approach... I'm definitely looking forward to such a TV series or movie.

[Gulbrand]

I'm no lawyer

I'm no lawyer

IM not a lawyer either..

Out of interest, is there any lawyers on this board at all? If so it would be nice to get some clarification on our rather unfounded speculation on copyright law..

[Strom]

I'm no lawyer

I'm no lawyer

IM not a lawyer either..

Out of interest, is there any lawyers on this board at all? If so it would be nice to get some clarification on our rather unfounded speculation on copyright law..

Godzilladude - REH scholar/editor Paul Herman - is a copyright lawyer - I believe - and he visits the forum regularly. That said, it's very complicated and it's not like every lawyer agrees with each other.

[crossplain pilgrim]

Strom said..."Godzilladude - REH scholar/editor Paul Herman - is a copyright lawyer - I believe - and he visits the forum regularly. That said, it's very complicated and it's not like every lawyer agrees with each other."

I'm stunned.

[Kortoso]

Ah Tortola is an island in the British Virgin Islands (BVI), that much is clear, at least.

[Gulbrand]

it's not like every lawyer agrees with each other.

Well maybe on the fact that every case should be drawn out as much as possible to allow for billing the maximum amount of hours.

Sorry for taking that cheap shot, it's just too easy to do that with lawyers and politicians.. If any of the copyright lawyers out there is still speaking to me I would still like to hear your professional opinion, even though it's just an opinion.

[crossplain pilgrim]

Quite all right, Gulbrand. Actually, I think it is an oxymoron to refer to anything pertaining to lawyers as a cheap-shot.

[budgie]

the idea of a Brit based production would be great, I loved the grittiness of HBO's Rome and Deadwood and could see that format working well on a Conan story.. wasnt Rome the most expensive series ever?

On the other hand with the exception of this forum ive heard or seen nothing in the UK press to confirm this in any way..

Going by what ive heard of the movie rumours the series sounds a better option.. I dont like my REH Conan cannon messed with

I live in hope fora miniseries though.

budgie

[Strom]

Strom said..."Godzilladude - REH scholar/editor Paul Herman - is a copyright lawyer - I believe - and he visits the forum regularly. That said, it's very complicated and it's not like every lawyer agrees with each other."

I'm stunned.

Well, I was clarifying the clarification of the usage of clarification within the context of the request for clarification. That much is clear.

[Sermon Bath]

"The Colour of Magic" is showing this weekend on ION network I believe if anybody wants to check it out...check your tv guide for time and date..

whoops, the show actually debuts Sunday march 22...sorry!

[?sir]

Strom said..."Godzilladude - REH scholar/editor Paul Herman - is a copyright lawyer - I believe - and he visits the forum regularly. That said, it's very complicated and it's not like every lawyer agrees with each other."

I'm stunned.

Well, I was clarifying the clarification of the usage of clarification within the context of the request for clarification. That much is clear.

Yo dawg. I heard you like clarifications..

On topic I like the idea of shorts. They're comfy. And I hope they find a way of getting this show done without any legality trouble.

[PainBrush]

hmm , don't want to be gadfly , but 'public domain' means just 'exactly' that - it belongs to the 'public' . Sorry , not open to interpretation , - 'creative' or otherwise . Anyone concerned enough can research it all easily enough . If sabers get rattled , that's when lawyers get payed .

I hope this one isn't just another rumor , I'd love to see the screenwriters and/or production team of 'Rome' do "Devil In Iron" ( that's the one supposedly in the works) . Hopefully C.P.I. won't get all 'DeCampish' & they'll get on board with the idea rather than tossing a spanner in the cogs . As far as this nostradammit psychic can see , this idea would blow away all that crap about the Rattman & the 7 dwarves who want to film the Conan 'Comic-books' . I cannot , I refuse to believe , be the only person to see any of this clearly can I ??!?

[Slave of Chabela]

A British-made Conan?

Breath - not to be held.

[darthgall]

Well, I'll step into the fray here:

I'm a lawyer.

Not an intellectual property lawyer, but a lawyer nonetheless. And on that note, nothing I write here is to be construed as legal advice: read on at your own peril. For my own protection, notice the liberal use of the word "probably" as in "the law probably says this is ok." Also please note I do not have a pony in this race, aside from being a REH fan and wanting to see some good derivative works (see below) produced. And I invite any and all comments/rebuttals/disagreements.

Copyright
REH writes his Conan story, and it gets copyrighted. This means that he can protect its use as a printed story, or the creation of a derivative work, for example, a movie based on it. After a period of time (usually calculated by the number of years after the author's death) it moves into the public domain, which means there is no copyright protection, which means that anyone can make a derivative work based on it.

It appears this is the producer's position.

Trademark
Trademark is different from copyright, it tells a consumer where a product came from. A great example is Apple's logo. If I start making crappy computer parts, and put Apple's logo on it, they'll sue me b/c I'm making it look like my crappy product came from them, thus hurting their reputation and sales.

So we stumble into a confusing area where REH stories may be in teh public domain, but the character of Conan is trademarked.
So, a Conan story is probably in the public domain, and anyone can probably make a derivative work.
On the other hand, the Conan character is probably trademarked, and someone making a work with Conan (not an REH story) would probably be found to be violating trademark protection. So if I write my own story and use Conan in it, Paradox would have a strong argument that I produced somethign that the public thinks came from them, and I'm hurting their sales, reputation, etc.

It's basically up to the Judge to decide which one wins out in this case.

And to add a level of complexity to it, b/c this production is based in England, with different laws, they may be able to produce something that an American company cannot.

What's going on with Conan is very closely analgous to Disney and Mickey (characters are of similar age, etc.) so I recommend this article for those interested in the politics/legal maneuvering/cases that might affect this:

http://www.digitaljo...m/article/35485
http://articles.lati...ess/fi-mickey22

Now, Flame Away!

Mick

Please note the IP attorney on here (I believe godzilladude) knows far more about this, and anything he says is probably better informed and more accurate than what I've outlined; but his hands may be tied as far as discussing any of this.

Edited by darthgall, 16 March 2009 - 08:38 PM.

[duaneshadow]

If they are talking about the BWS interpretations or the SSOC adaptations, as opposed to the gubbo made up subsequently, they could do worse.

[crossplain pilgrim]

Interesting post, darthgall. Thanks for joining the fray. I hope it's not too late to take back all my cheap shots at lawyers. We are, of course, putting quite a bit of effort into a debate about a film that is a rumor. I would love to see some further evidence that the much discussed British film is actually on the drawing boards. As has been said before, the Conan stories do lend themselves to an anthology treatment. Some of you may remember the HBO series of Raymond Chandler stories that was, by coincidence, produced in the UK.

[godzilladude]

Well, I'll step into the fray here:

I'm a lawyer.

Not an intellectual property lawyer, but a lawyer nonetheless. And on that note, nothing I write here is to be construed as legal advice: read on at your own peril. For my own protection, notice the liberal use of the word "probably" as in "the law probably says this is ok." Also please note I do not have a pony in this race, aside from being a REH fan and wanting to see some good derivative works (see below) produced. And I invite any and all comments/rebuttals/disagreements.

Copyright
REH writes his Conan story, and it gets copyrighted. This means that he can protect its use as a printed story, or the creation of a derivative work, for example, a movie based on it. After a period of time (usually calculated by the number of years after the author's death) it moves into the public domain, which means there is no copyright protection, which means that anyone can make a derivative work based on it.

It appears this is the producer's position.

Trademark
Trademark is different from copyright, it tells a consumer where a product came from. A great example is Apple's logo. If I start making crappy computer parts, and put Apple's logo on it, they'll sue me b/c I'm making it look like my crappy product came from them, thus hurting their reputation and sales.

So we stumble into a confusing area where REH stories may be in teh public domain, but the character of Conan is trademarked.
So, a Conan story is probably in the public domain, and anyone can probably make a derivative work.
On the other hand, the Conan character is probably trademarked, and someone making a work with Conan (not an REH story) would probably be found to be violating trademark protection. So if I write my own story and use Conan in it, Paradox would have a strong argument that I produced somethign that the public thinks came from them, and I'm hurting their sales, reputation, etc.

It's basically up to the Judge to decide which one wins out in this case.

And to add a level of complexity to it, b/c this production is based in England, with different laws, they may be able to produce something that an American company cannot.

What's going on with Conan is very closely analgous to Disney and Mickey (characters are of similar age, etc.) so I recommend this article for those interested in the politics/legal maneuvering/cases that might affect this:

http://www.digitaljo...m/article/35485
http://articles.lati...ess/fi-mickey22

Now, Flame Away!

Mick

Please note the IP attorney on here (I believe godzilladude) knows far more about this, and anything he says is probably better informed and more accurate than what I've outlined; but his hands may be tied as far as discussing any of this.

Oh no, I'm with you. It's copyright v. trademark. But I don't know UK law to the extent necessary to even guess which way this goes, or if it has even been addressed in a similar situation in the UK. There HAVE been somewhat similar cases in the US (Sherlock Holmes, Amos and Andy, though both really decided on other issues). I still think it'd take a lawsuit to get it settled one way or the other. Definitely take it on an hourly basis. Figure maybe $100K-$500K per side to work it start to finish. Make it a big movie so we can justify bigger lawyers, maybe a million. IP suits are expensive. And the UK I BELIEVE is loser pays the other side's attorney fees, along with your own. Though at least this one would mostly be everyone agrees on the facts, just have to decide what the rule should be, so that would make it run quicker and more direct. Maybe blow it out at summary judgment, and on up to appeals.

Shoot, for all I know they may have some kind of administrative court subsystem to handle this quick and clean. I've been over for matters handled by the UK patent office resolving disputes that would have required the courts in the US. And as I said, maybe it's already settled law there and I just don't know what it is. Hopefully the TV producers' lawyers DO.

Remind me to do the secret handshake next time I see ya.

[Kortoso]

I would love to see some further evidence that the much discussed British film is actually on the drawing boards.

Me too. Talk is cheap and rumors are legion.

[darthgall]

Dear Crossplain Pilgrim,

You'd better not take those comments back. One prerequisite for being a good lawyer is a thick skin.

I knew what I was getting into, and my response is: bring it on.

Glad you liked the post, though. I'm more than willing to sit here and armchair quarterback this thing to death...

MIck.