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Rusty Burke's "An REH Purist's Manifesto"


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#1 Taranaich

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 02:30 PM

Recent discussion of Rusty Burke's seminal document moved me sufficiently to create a topic dedicated to it.

With the Dark Horse comics, Age of Conan and all manner of new Conan/Hyborian fiction coming out, how does the Manifesto stand up today?

1. We believe that ONLY the words actually written by Robert E. Howard have "official" or "canonical" status with regard to the life and adventures of Conan, or of any other character created by REH.

Note that, while most of us have little interest in pastiches, we do not deny anyone the right to produce them. In fact, the "purist" position would actually result in more and better pastiches. How? By opening up the entire Conan "saga" to any writer to produce his or her own interpretations of episodes from Conan's career. Working from hints in Howard's work, any number of writers could give us their own versions of Conan's rise to kingship, say, or any other of his adventures not actually chronicled by REH. Currently, the artificial "biography" of Conan originally created by P. Schuyler Miller and John D. Clark, but later considerably amended and expanded by L. Sprague de Camp, effectively prevents any such situation. Those who control the Conan "property" insist that writers must follow de Camp's outline of Conan's career, and one and only one version of any given episode or period is allowed. This actually stifles, rather than encourages, creativity. De Camp has suggested that lack of rigid controls could result in such abominations as a gay Conan. My response is: so what? I'm sure that those who plead that Conan should be "consumer friendly" and that we should give the readers what they want, no matter what it is they want, would have to agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with gay people having their own Conan.


At the risk of digression, I'm going to run with the "gay Conan" thing, just bear with me a minute.

While the idea of a gay Conan would shock some (and come as no surprise to certain quarters only familiar with the oiled-up muscular icon from the films :P), ultimately I'm in agreement with Burke's sentiments. As long as a gay Conan does not usurp Howard's original straight Conan - not BECAUSE of his sexuality, but the simple fact that that isn't how the creator, Howard, wrote him - I'm perfectly fine with it. Some of the manliest men in history were known or suspected to be homosexual or bisexual - Michelangelo, Alexander, Hadrian, half of the Greek/Roman list of rulers etc. Mythology is rife with men of the highest order of masculinity who would take male lovers - Heracles, Achilles, Cuchullain, Gilgamesh, among others, each the "Conan" of their own mythology. Although I certainly wouldn't consider it "canon" and it wouldn't colour my perception of REH's Conan, I can think of worse things for a pastiche Conan than for him to be homosexual.

But enough of that: my point is that the freedom for new fiction would be much better to allow better stories if they didn't have to adhere to a pre-established chronology. For now, "Conan the Liberator" is the only depiction of Conan's rise to kingship given any sort of official status: it was adapted in Marvel's Conan and Savage Sword, and to this day no other depiction of this important event in Conan's life has been directly explored. Dale Rippke did an outline for his Dark Storm Conan Chronology, and there is the abandoned treatment for Karl Edward Wager's "Day of the Lion", but none of those are officially endorsed.

I'm pretty sure that when they get around to that period, Dark Horse have their own idea of what happened, but until then, "Conan the Liberator" is still the only published account of that period. I'm sure fans of the novel are perfectly happy with the idea that Conan came to power with the help of friendly centaurs after extensive periods of inaction punctuated by battles with a far-too-sympathetic sorcerer, but in the absence of a Howard-penned tale, we only have the pastiches. There have been many pastiches and homages done of other characters that are not counted as "official" yet are still interesting to read for the philosophical exercise: Gaiman's "A Study in Emerald", Alan Moore's "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", and the myriad re-tellings of fairy tales are all interesting, but you'd obviously not put them in the same shelf as the original authors.

The Conan stories should be treated as the Sherlock Holmes stories are treated by their aficionados: only the actual works of the creator of the series (in our case, REH) should be accounted "canonical": all else is pastiche. There are many Sherlock Holmes pastiches out there, some of them based on the same hints from Doyle. I myself own several versions of the "giant rat of Sumatra" tale, for instance. But Sherlockians all agree that the original tales of Dr. Watson as told to Conan Doyle are the only truly canonical works.


To their credit, Dark Horse has acknowledged REH frequently, and made a point of their "higher" status in canon to the rest of the issues, to the point of using a different type-face when Howard's words are used, which is something I'm extremely impressed with.

2. Only the actual words written by Robert E. Howard himself have any business in the "official" saga. Pastiches should be sold separately.

In this I would include those stories "edited" (i.e., rewritten) by de Camp: the Howard versions of "The Frost-Giant's Daughter," "The Black Stranger," and "The God in the Bowl" belong in the Howard volumes, and the non-Conan tales which de Camp turned into Conan stories should not be included. Fragments should be left as fragments in the Howard volumes. Again, pastiche to your heart's content, but do not attempt to sell your work as REH's.


With the Del Rays now in full swing and the unedited Howard stories freely available to all, the Purist Manifesto is now quite easily attainable.

So what's everyone's view on this issue? Is the manifesto still relevant with uncensored and unedited REH easily accessible? What makes an "REH Purist"? What about other Howard characters like Cormac Mac Art, Bran Mak Morn and others?

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#2 ?sir

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 06:58 PM

So what's everyone's view on this issue? Is the manifesto still relevant with uncensored and unedited REH easily accessible? What makes an "REH Purist"? What about other Howard characters like Cormac Mac Art, Bran Mak Morn and others?


I haven't read any of Howard's non-Conan work, but I would say the manifesto is as relevant as ever. There will always be people asking the question "Why isn't this and that included in this so-called complete edition?" and they should be pointed to this manifesto. I agree with all of the quotes posted here and if those are all of it, the whole manifesto, I agree with all of it (I have read it at some point, but I can't recall if it encompased more than what you quoted here).

#3 amster

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 07:13 PM

What strikes me are the misconceptions people have about exactly what a REH "purist" is. You see it on the Conan Completist board, and from Arnold fans on IMDB. Even Arvid Nelson said "purists should stay away" from his Kull comic, and that they would "hate" it. They all seem to suffer from the misconception that purists only like the original stories and nothing else, and that we hate all pastiche material, regardless of how worthy it is. Its simply not true. As Rusty's manifesto states, we simply don't want pastiches mixed with the original REH stories the way they were in the Lancer/Ace editions. Most of us like at least some of the pastiches, and read the comics, and I would estimate that at least half of the purists like the Milius film. From my own perspective, pastiches are okay as long as they don't conflict with REH's original stories.
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#4 deuce

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 07:38 PM

What strikes me are the misconceptions people have about exactly what a REH "purist" is. You see it on the Conan Completist board, and from Arnold fans on IMDB. Even Arvid Nelson said "purists should stay away" from his Kull comic, and that they would "hate" it. They all seem to suffer from the misconception that purists only like the original stories and nothing else, and that we hate all pastiche material, regardless of how worthy it is. Its simply not true.


Exactly, Amster. "Purist" seems to be a good perjorative term to throw around every time someone points out that some form of pastiche conflicts with what REH wrote (or that said pastiche is flat-out BAD).
However, I've read posts from some members on this forum who apply the term "purist" to themselves (I'm not sure if I've ever done so on this forum) who seem to have no familiarity with Rusty Burke's manifesto. If I ever do refer to myself as a "purist", I like to specify that by saying I'm a "Burke purist".

As Rusty's manifesto states, we simply don't want pastiches mixed with the original REH stories the way they were in the Lancer/Ace editions. Most of us like at least some of the pastiches, and read the comics, and I would estimate that at least half of the purists like the Milius film. From my own perspective, pastiches are okay as long as they don't conflict with REH's original stories.


Rusty Burke got into Conan/REH by way of the RT/BWS/Marvel™ comics. He remains a comics fan (which, apparently, he takes some heat about, now n' then). Rusty was perfectly aware that those comics were pastiches. He's also, AFAIK, a fan of Wagner's pastiche novel, The Road of Kings. As I've noted, there are a few on this forum who call themselves "purists" who seem to regard ANYTHING not written by REH, ANY sort of Howard pastiche, as unreadable/"should-have-never-been-written". I'm not one of those people, nor is Rusty Burke, obviously. As he states, he sees his approach (as opposed to that of the CPI/deCampian regime in place at the time) as actually making MORE pastiches possible. Let history and readers sort out what was worthy (or not). He and his manifesto have been unjustly caricatured as wildly constrictive/critical. That is simply not the case.

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#5 PaulMc

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 09:46 PM

Okay, this is a meaty thread - but I don't have time for a meaty response so, here are some bullet points.

1.) I'm an REH purist

2.) I enjoy the wider world of comics and pastiches (or, as Ryan Harvey termed them "neoConans" - because a true pastiche would be trying to imitate Howard's writing style, not just using his character but .. you know, whatever .. we know what we mean.)

3.) The "timeline unlocked could mean a gay Conan" argument sounds like apples & oranges. Gay Conan wouldn't be Conan - that's not his character. Regardless of the timeline being open or not, we need Conan to stay true to character. I've seen plenty of pastiche reviews that cite the "Conan" in the story was just a barbarian-of-the-month placeholder.

4.) While I'm okay with an open Conan timeline, after we've read five or six different stories on how he became king, it would get really old and confusing, wouldn't it? We already have Turtledove's conflict with JMR's description of the Cimmerian homeland and cultures (from what I've read in reviews, again. I haven't read those two novels personally.) I would at least stick with a general could Conan really be this far across the world at this point in his general life (going by the REH original tales)? In that arena, I would try to have adventures that didn't walk on each other, but otherwise be open to creativity (while keeping Hyboria Hyborian and not turning it into Thieves World or Greyhawk or anything else.)

5.) With so many pastiches already, would it beat a dead horse to squeeze in more? I guess not. We probably all harbor a desire to write at least one Conan novel ourselves. 'Doctor Who' has all kinds of spinoffs, between-the-t.v.-episodes novels, etc. And even conflicting stories within it's own t.v. continuity (Atlantis was visited and destroyed two times over the course of the series.) Even a Time Lord couldn't have done it all, but who cares? If it's a fun adventure when you're in the middle of it, you can forget the bigger picture of timeline(s).

6.) I still hold out some hope for a return of 'Age of Conan' novels. That would give us a wider world and characters to explore without putting it all on Conan's shoulders.

Edited by PaulMc, 20 March 2009 - 09:53 PM.

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#6 Taranaich

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 01:10 AM

Interesting responses, folks.

3.) The "timeline unlocked could mean a gay Conan" argument sounds like apples & oranges. Gay Conan wouldn't be Conan - that's not his character. Regardless of the timeline being open or not, we need Conan to stay true to character. I've seen plenty of pastiche reviews that cite the "Conan" in the story was just a barbarian-of-the-month placeholder.


While I think staying true to Conan's character is ideal, I don't think that should preclude new interpretations of the character that don't directly impact the Hyborian Age. The Gay Conan example was one of those "What If" philosophical exercises I was talking about. Case in point: "The Problem of Susan". Neil Gaiman wrote an interesting story about Susan Pevensie of the Narnia series: it's a fascinating story, but nobody would seriously view it as being canonical.

any fan worth his salt would *know* that Conan wasn't gay, or black, or a cyborg, or a purple tortoise.

4.) While I'm okay with an open Conan timeline, after we've read five or six different stories on how he became king, it would get really old and confusing, wouldn't it? We already have Turtledove's conflict with JMR's description of the Cimmerian homeland and cultures (from what I've read in reviews, again. I haven't read those two novels personally.) I would at least stick with a general could Conan really be this far across the world at this point in his general life (going by the REH original tales)? In that arena, I would try to have adventures that didn't walk on each other, but otherwise be open to creativity (while keeping Hyboria Hyborian and not turning it into Thieves World or Greyhawk or anything else.)


I'm not really suggesting anything that's being done particularly differently from the current setup. For ages we had, for example, Lin Carter's "The Hand of Nergal": now we have Tim Truman's "The Hand of Nergal", both based on Howard's untitled "Yaralet" fragment. The two pastiches are very, very different. Five or six might be pushing it, but I wouldn't mind to see at least one other version of the Yaralet fragment (preferably one that doesn't have NERGAL in the title, dammit). Likewise, "The Day of the Lion" looked like it would be very different from "Conan the Liberator", and I don't doubt Dark Horse will do something different again when their arc comes around.

Is it confusing? I don't see why. One need only choose the story they LIKE the best, and disregard the others. Anyone writing future pastiches could either adhere to other pastiches that they liked, or do something completely different. If nothing else, stick to a single author/medium, since they're (slightly) less likely to make a mess of their own continuity. And even after all that, there's another, final option: disregard them all. I really like KEW's "Road of Kings", it's a well-written novel by an author I admire, but for some reason I don't think of it as "canon". I have a different grasp of REH's character from KEW, and that prevents me of thinking of TRoK when I think of "Conan stories I enjoyed". I don't think of any of the pastiches I liked as canon, because they don't fit what *I* envisioned. Even if KEW's Day of the Lion was printed, I'd still likely have my own idea of how that fateful day went down.

5.) With so many pastiches already, would it beat a dead horse to squeeze in more? I guess not. We probably all harbor a desire to write at least one Conan novel ourselves. 'Doctor Who' has all kinds of spinoffs, between-the-t.v.-episodes novels, etc. And even conflicting stories within it's own t.v. continuity (Atlantis was visited and destroyed two times over the course of the series.) Even a Time Lord couldn't have done it all, but who cares? If it's a fun adventure when you're in the middle of it, you can forget the bigger picture of timeline(s).


And just like the many, MANY Doctor Who novels, there's a lot of tripe out there. Luckily, we got most of the tripe out of the way courtesy of Nyberg, Green, Turtledove et al. :P

Besides, part of the reason people might want more pastiches is because the pastiches relating to times in Conan's life that are only alluded to - Venarium, kingship, his visit to the Americas, an expansion of Belit's Saga - have been lost on terrible novels. If the pastiches were *all* good or at least competent, then I could understand the antipathy to "retreading ground", but not when the choices we are faced with are so terrible. By adhering to one timeline as with De Camp/Carter, we end up with what we are given, and nothing else - so we're stuck with garbage like "Conan the Liberator". If faced with the choice of a few good novels in a sea of rubbish for one aspect of Conan's career, OR the choice of a few good novels in a sea of rubbish for Conan's entire life (as it is now), I'd pick the former.

Continuity is immaterial: Howard didn't write it, so it didn't happen. Continuity in relation to other books is immaterial, since they're all legends too: it would be nice, obviously, but I'd take a quality yarn with continuity issues over slavish adherence to a timeline that has no spark. It doesn't seem to have done Doctor Who - or Star Trek, or Star Wars - any harm.

6.) I still hold out some hope for a return of 'Age of Conan' novels. That would give us a wider world and characters to explore without putting it all on Conan's shoulders.


The idea is good, but none of the synopses or reviews I've read give the indication that Howard has anything to worry about. There are so many characters worth exploring, it kind of jars that they start off with completely original characters when you have Shevatas, Epimitreus, Taurus, Amalric, Zelata and the like. Heck, REH himself started that off with "Wolves Beyond the Border". There'd definitely more to the Hyborian Age than just Conan.

I hope I'm making sense, because I'm very tired right now. *lays head on keyboard*

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#7 deuce

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 02:01 AM

Makes sense to me. I definitely have a better picture of where you're coming from. :)

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#8 Strom

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:52 PM

Your welcome T. :)

I think - for some - there is a badge of honor by Howard fans to use the term purist, Some use it as a shield to defend Howard's work while not completely understanding the term as defined by Rusty indicates that Howard's work needs no defending. I also think many purists have trouble with the "not interested in pastiche" comment - it is simply not the case. Those so-called purists will critique pastiche against Howard work- a meaningless task that is often self-serving and deigned simply to discredit fun, entertaining pastiche. Rusty is absolutely right - purists should have no interest in pastiche - yet many purists have trouble accepting popular pastiche as legitimate entertainment. They see popular pastiche as an affront to Howard's work - which I have always contented diminishes the literary power of his work, putting it on the same level most of Howard's critics do - simply pulp.

Rusty's manifesto is very relevant - I think it is largely unattainable by most so-called purists. Even Rusty in his Wall Street journal article interview gave entertainment driven pastiche power over Howard's prose by implying the pastiche damaged Howard's work and only thru efforts of others can Howard's work be saved. Did Rusty forget the "gay Conan" argument? No, I just think it is a very hard manifesto to adhere to in reality. I see it here on the forums - many feel the need to defend Howard against pastiche. I've always posted - since I joined the forum - that pastiche is equal only to pastiche and few, members are true purists. Reading Rusty's manifesto one would think there would be millions. It is an admirable goal.

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#9 deuce

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:48 PM

Here's a post by Rusty Burke from a couple of years ago (VERY slightly reformatted). Basically, this is his Manifesto "in action", at least as far as how REH's fiction should and should not be treated in the realm of prose. This post is for those who just can't seem to figure out that Mr. Burke (and anyone else who subscribes to his Manifesto) is NOT categorically against pastiches of the works of Robert E. Howard. There are PLENTY of people who have posted on this forum who call themselves "Howard purists" :rolleyes: that have NEVER read "An REH Purist's Manifesto". Rusty was ALL about breaking "Conan" loose from the shackles that the LSdC-controlled CPI had placed upon the original and unaltered REH texts. The Manifesto had VERY little to do with "Conan pastiches" (or other Howardian pastiches) per se.

Let me get this straight???? A story that doesn't have Thulsa doom and probably never meant to have him was finished by someone else and now it's probably ruined because of it? It almost sounds like she wanted to introduce Thulsa in that story as a precurser to The Cat And The Skull. I hate it when authors do that. I think I like the unfinished work better than a work finished by comeone else. Thats why I never read the new Dune stories. :)


Lin Carter (a he) and his colleague L. Sprague de Camp were both over-fond of having an on-going villain in a series. Thus Carter wanted to insert more Thulsa Doom into the Kull series, and he and de Camp overused Thoth-Amon in the Conan series.

I personally have no problem with other writers trying to finish off a work left unfinished by a deceased author
, as long as

(1) the unfinished work is available for those who want to read it as the original author left it;
(2) the writer who "completes" the work is not granted an exclusive license to be the *only* one who can ever try it;
(3) the new writer has a professional level of writing ability; and
(4) the new writer has a worldview and natural style that are simpatico with the original author.


I would enjoy seeing someone like Scott Oden try his hand at one of Howard's unfinished stories. Carter and de Camp were pretty bad, I thought, mainly because neither of them had the personal worldview or writing style that meshed with Howard's. Ramsey Campbell, though, did a reasonably decent job with the Solomon Kane stories in the Bantam editions (in my opinion).

I know that a lot of readers prefer having the stories continued. Myself, I like to read them the way Howard left them, and try to imagine some of the ways he might have gone with them.

Rusty


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#10 Carcosa

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 12:13 AM

Well, I would certainly qualify as a "purist" since everything in Rusty's document is common sense. But its also been the guide-line that's been established in the case of other authors from A. Conan Doyle to Tolkien and all the way to Edgar Rice Burroughs. There really hasn't been any question on what is canon with those guys. It just took a bit of unraveling in the case of REH's Conan character.

But its been established now and there is no going back. I do think there are also some militant purists out there and I don't find much common ground with them.

Edited by Carcosa, 01 August 2009 - 12:14 AM.


#11 deuce

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 12:28 AM

But its been established now and there is no going back. I do think there are also some militant purists out there and I don't find much common ground with them.


I'm with ya, Carcosa. B)



I like my "good" (IMO) pastiches (in ANY medium). I just don't see how/why LSdC (or anyone else) should be able to put out radically altered texts while suppressing the original stories from REH. Also, I don't see why the fictional works of ANYONE (except in a clearly delineated anthology) should be laid alongside that of REH and published in the same volume on equal footing. In essence, that's Rusty's Manifesto, IMO. He's welcome to correct me. :)

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#12 deuce

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 12:44 AM

Well, I would certainly qualify as a "purist" since everything in Rusty's document is common sense. But its also been the guide-line that's been established in the case of other authors from A. Conan Doyle to Tolkien and all the way to Edgar Rice Burroughs. There really hasn't been any question on what is canon with those guys. It just took a bit of unraveling in the case of REH's Conan character. .


Hey Carcosa! You're ignoring a very important "fact" ;) : L. Sprague de Camp "gave" REH and Conan to the world. Now, apparently, Donald A. Wollheim DID NOT "give" ERB, Moorcock's "Elric" or JRRT to the world (though he did almost the same things as LSdC), so we need not remember him in ANY way. El Spraguo "saved" Robert E. Howard from obscurity (even though Wollheim primed the pump in the late '50s with his Conan the Conqueror reprint).

Spraguey's herculean, charitable and selfless efforts :rolleyes: ENTITLED him to then impose HIS chronology upon the Conan tales AND to prevent the publication of The Black Stranger AND to prevent the publication of KEW's "The Day of the Lion" while foisting his lame-a$$ Conan the Liberator upon a Conan-hungry public.

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#13 Carcosa

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 01:17 AM

Well, I would certainly qualify as a "purist" since everything in Rusty's document is common sense. But its also been the guide-line that's been established in the case of other authors from A. Conan Doyle to Tolkien and all the way to Edgar Rice Burroughs. There really hasn't been any question on what is canon with those guys. It just took a bit of unraveling in the case of REH's Conan character. .


Hey Carcosa! You're ignoring a very important "fact" ;) : L. Sprague de Camp "gave" REH and Conan to the world. Now, apparently, Donald A. Wollheim DID NOT "give" ERB, Moorcock's "Elric" or JRRT to the world (though he did almost the same things as LSdC), so we need not remember him in ANY way. El Spraguo "saved" Robert E. Howard from obscurity (even though Wollheim primed the pump in the late '50s with his Conan the Conqueror reprint).

Spraguey's herculean, charitable and selfless efforts :rolleyes: ENTITLED him to then impose HIS chronology upon the Conan tales AND to prevent the publication of The Black Stranger AND to prevent the publication of KEW's "The Day of the Lion" while foisting his lame-a$ Conan the Liberator upon a Conan-hungry public.


Maybe we should merge this with the DeCAMP CONTROVERSY thread..... :P

#14 deuce

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 01:48 AM

Well, I would certainly qualify as a "purist" since everything in Rusty's document is common sense. But its also been the guide-line that's been established in the case of other authors from A. Conan Doyle to Tolkien and all the way to Edgar Rice Burroughs. There really hasn't been any question on what is canon with those guys. It just took a bit of unraveling in the case of REH's Conan character. .


Hey Carcosa! You're ignoring a very important "fact" ;) : L. Sprague de Camp "gave" REH and Conan to the world. Now, apparently, Donald A. Wollheim DID NOT "give" ERB, Moorcock's "Elric" or JRRT to the world (though he did almost the same things as LSdC), so we need not remember him in ANY way. El Spraguo "saved" Robert E. Howard from obscurity (even though Wollheim primed the pump in the late '50s with his Conan the Conqueror reprint).

Spraguey's herculean, charitable and selfless efforts :rolleyes: ENTITLED him to then impose HIS chronology upon the Conan tales AND to prevent the publication of The Black Stranger AND to prevent the publication of KEW's "The Day of the Lion" while foisting his lame-a$ Conan the Liberator upon a Conan-hungry public.


Maybe we should merge this with the DeCAMP CONTROVERSY thread..... :P


No. ;) You mentioned the de Camp situation. I simply filled in the picture. The purpose of this thread is to explicate Rusty's Manifesto and to show those who don't seem to understand it that it does NOT preclude pastiches. All it precludes is de Camp-style meddling.

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#15 Carcosa

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 01:52 AM

Well, I would certainly qualify as a "purist" since everything in Rusty's document is common sense. But its also been the guide-line that's been established in the case of other authors from A. Conan Doyle to Tolkien and all the way to Edgar Rice Burroughs. There really hasn't been any question on what is canon with those guys. It just took a bit of unraveling in the case of REH's Conan character. .


Hey Carcosa! You're ignoring a very important "fact" ;) : L. Sprague de Camp "gave" REH and Conan to the world. Now, apparently, Donald A. Wollheim DID NOT "give" ERB, Moorcock's "Elric" or JRRT to the world (though he did almost the same things as LSdC), so we need not remember him in ANY way. El Spraguo "saved" Robert E. Howard from obscurity (even though Wollheim primed the pump in the late '50s with his Conan the Conqueror reprint).

Spraguey's herculean, charitable and selfless efforts :rolleyes: ENTITLED him to then impose HIS chronology upon the Conan tales AND to prevent the publication of The Black Stranger AND to prevent the publication of KEW's "The Day of the Lion" while foisting his lame-a$ Conan the Liberator upon a Conan-hungry public.


Maybe we should merge this with the DeCAMP CONTROVERSY thread..... :P


No. ;) You mentioned the de Camp situation. I simply filled in the picture. The purpose of this thread is to explicate Rusty's Manifesto and to show those who don't seem to understand it that it does NOT preclude pastiches. All it precludes is de Camp-style meddling.


I didn't mention it here that I know of. Where did I mention it?

#16 deuce

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 01:58 AM

Well, I would certainly qualify as a \"purist\" since everything in Rusty\'s document is common sense. But its also been the guide-line that\'s been established in the case of other authors from A. Conan Doyle to Tolkien and all the way to Edgar Rice Burroughs. There really hasn\'t been any question on what is canon with those guys. It just took a bit of unraveling in the case of REH\'s Conan character.


Hey Carcosa! You\'re ignoring a very important \"fact\": L. Sprague de Camp \"gave\" REH and Conan to the world. Now, apparently, Donald A. Wollheim DID NOT \"give\" ERB, Moorcock\'s \"Elric\" or JRRT to the world (though he did almost the same things as LSdC), so we need not remember him in ANY way. El Spraguo \"saved\" Robert E. Howard from obscurity (even though Wollheim primed the pump in the late \'50s with his Conan the Conqueror reprint).

Spraguey\'s herculean, charitable and selfless efforts ENTITLED him to then impose HIS chronology upon the Conan tales AND to prevent the publication of The Black Stranger AND to prevent the publication of KEW\'s \"The Day of the Lion\" while foisting his lame-a$ Conan the Liberator upon a Conan-hungry public.


Maybe we should merge this with the DeCAMP CONTROVERSY thread.....


No. ;) You mentioned the de Camp situation. I simply filled in the picture. The purpose of this thread is to explicate Rusty\'s Manifesto and to show those who don\'t seem to understand it that it does NOT preclude pastiches. All it precludes is de Camp-style meddling.


I didn\'t mention it here that I know of. Where did I mention it?


:rolleyes: Split hairs much? I said \"situation\". :) Really, it would be nice to get this back on track.

I agree, any further discussion along this line SHOULD be on the \"Controversy\" thread. :D Any similar posts from you, myself or anyone else probably WILL get "merged" with the "Controversy" thread.

My reply to the second half of your post was really more of an irresistible afterthought.

EDIT: Sorry about the crazy format change. Not sure what happened there.

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#17 deuce

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 02:41 AM

Taranaich never posted the last part of Rusty's Manifesto. Here it is:

Our basic "purist" premise:

ROBERT E. HOWARD, ENTIRELY ALONE, WITHOUT ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER PERSON, CREATED THE CHARACTER CONAN OF CIMMERIA. NO OTHER PERSON OR PERSONS SHOULD BE INTRUDING THEIR WORK INTO THE VOLUMES OF HOWARD'S CONAN STORIES

In essence, we believe that the work of any creative artist -- writer, painter, illustrator, musician, what-have-you -- is a unique expression of an artistic point of view. It should not be appropriated or altered by others without the artist's consent. No other writer has Robert E. Howard's unique point of view, and no other writer knows what Howard would have done with his character had he lived. Upon his death, his canon, the expression of his artistic vision, became fixed. Tampering with it now is desecration.


As if Rusty's prose was "legalese" (which it ain't); he's just saying that what is "canon" (ie, "what counts") in regards to REH's creations is ONLY what what Robert E. Howard wrote/said, NOT what later ("parties unnamed") might have to say. :)


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#18 Carcosa

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 07:02 AM

:rolleyes: Split hairs much? I said \"situation\". :) Really, it would be nice to get this back on track.

I agree, any further discussion along this line SHOULD be on the \"Controversy\" thread. :D Any similar posts from you, myself or anyone else probably WILL get "merged" with the "Controversy" thread.

My reply to the second half of your post was really more of an irresistible afterthought.


Sorry, I'm a bit confused.... but hey, its generally a way of life for me. :)

I in no way intended a reference to the other discussion. The line I think in question "It just took a bit of unraveling in the case of REH's Conan character." was really meant to mean nothing more than after the fiasco involving you-know-who, canon is now established, and without question. And it's not the pastiches by, well...that other guy. If this is not it. I am just lost.

Anyway, I'm actually agreeing with you about the purist thing. I've noted before on other threads that I've only read pure REH....I don't know any different. Grant books, and then later the Berkley and Zebra paperbacks...and all primarily non Conan. No Lancers in my life growing up. I've read a few stories finished by other hands and found them a mixed bag....some good and some not so good (the Lupoff "RETURN OF SKULL-FACE" thing) but I like them finished. I do agree that is should be clearly noted and defined when the are. But its a good thing to do. I'm glad that Robert B. Parker finished off the Raymond Chandler book POODLE SPRINGS. Its a great book. I don't think anybody is calling that book Philip Marlowe "canon" though...

Edited by Carcosa, 01 August 2009 - 03:58 PM.


#19 deuce

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 01:02 AM

:rolleyes: Split hairs much? I said \"situation\". :) Really, it would be nice to get this back on track.

I agree, any further discussion along this line SHOULD be on the \"Controversy\" thread. :D Any similar posts from you, myself or anyone else probably WILL get "merged" with the "Controversy" thread.

My reply to the second half of your post was really more of an irresistible afterthought.


Sorry, I'm a bit confused.... but hey, its generally a way of life for me. :)

I in no way intended a reference to the other discussion. The line I think in question "It just took a bit of unraveling in the case of REH's Conan character." was really meant to mean nothing more than after the fiasco involving you-know-who, canon is now established, and without question. And it's not the pastiches by, well...that other guy. If this is not it. I am just lost.


Yeah, that was the line I was talking about. Sorry about the confusion. Friends had shown up earlier with refreshments. THEN a "distraction" showed up at my door, so things were a little chaotic on my end. :)

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#20 Renato

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 04:18 PM

I thought that the 'Purist Manifest' is still valuable as we know that some new Mass Media interventions will came in near future (new movies about Conan and Salomon Kane, p.e.). The Rusty Burke's 'Purist Manifest' is important as it points to the Author, Robert E. Howard and a established Canon, of course. It is a milestone of Howard studies.
It stands that new interventions in Howard's work are something that have to be considered as it was: a work that has influence of the original Howard, but that have an author that is not Howard and that is open to be be criticized in this way.

Not confusing the original with the new, I thought that is the question.

IMHO, first, I though that if the geniality of Howard opens an universe of possibilities, because it has an inherent logic (a Howard's logic). If the news works considers this logic, even ultra-passing it, we can understand that it has a place in a field of works influenced by Howard, because these works will contribute to add fans and to expand Howard contributions.

Second, if the new works explores in a wrong way the Canon, Ideas, Howard's life, they are not in the field of works influenced by Howard, they are works that only abuse the propriety rights, making easy money to their authors, so they have to be criticized in this way.

Edited by Renato, 11 October 2009 - 04:19 PM.