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Conan The Cro-magnon


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#1 ?sir

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 06:08 PM

Still, Conan is neither a demigod as per the original Greek definition (the offspring of a mortal and a deity) nor a saint-like knight. Nor is he a protector, defender or guardian as the etymology would imply or a "man of superhuman strength and courage" since that would imply he's more than human. Unless he is indeed not human as in homo sapiens, but rather Cro-magnon as has been discussed before, and that Cro-magnons can be considered superhuman. But since the definition of "human" includes all members of the family Hominidae that doesn't really work either.

Would you like some split hair with that?

#2 Pictish Scout

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 07:08 PM

Conan is a Cro-Magnon and not a human? How?

Conan in IS a protector of Aquilonia. It is his goal in the last stories: Protect his subjects, his "tribe".

#3 amster

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 11:27 PM

Conan is a Cro-Magnon and not a human? How?


Can someone link the thread where we extensively discussed the possibility of Conan being a Cro-magnon? I can't even recall the name of it.


I'm certainly no expert on the field of Anthropology, but I'm pretty certain that Cro-Magnons were humans. Hope this doesn't derail the thread.

...and I've read all of the Conan stories multiple times, and I can't cite a single instance where REH describes Conan, or Cimmerians in gerneral, as "apish" or "more apish" than Hyborians or any other race. Pantherish, yes. Apish, no. I don't think "primative" or "barbaric", in the context of REH's fiction, is synonymous with "less evolved".

Edited by amsterdamaged, 27 May 2009 - 11:35 PM.

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Money and muscle, that's what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money won't do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world won't enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it.
--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--

#4 ?sir

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 11:50 PM

I'm certainly no expert on the field of Anthropology, but I'm pretty certain that Cro-Magnons were humans.


Unless he is indeed not human as in homo sapiens, but rather Cro-magnon as has been discussed before, and that Cro-magnons can be considered superhuman. But since the definition of "human" includes all members of the family Hominidae that doesn't really work either.


My point was that if Cro-magnons could be considered superhuman, then it would have been valid, but since they are human I can't see how they can be considered more than human. Like I stated in the above post.

#5 Pictish Scout

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 02:07 AM

But Cro-Magnons are modern humans. Not "apish" as the Neanderthal. I agree with you, Conan is a modern human being.

Getting back to the hero thing. I believe everyone agrees that Achilles and Hector are Greek Heroes. Hector is a nice guy, a family man, a dedicated son, husband and father. He fights for his country. Achilles is selfish, arrogant, fights for his own glory. He doesn’t even care about his “faction” in the Trojan War. Yet both are Heroes.
Heracles, maybe the greatest Greek hero, is a very violent man, also selfish, mentally and emotionally unstable.
They are all “heroes” unless we start to call them Greek anti-heroes.
I think that if Conan existed his legacy would have been more positive compared to Heracles, Achilles or King David. Conan didn’t impose his lordship over anyone, he never wanted an empire but he embraced the task of protecting the land. I think that’s his legacy to the future although he (like Heracles, Achilles and David) did many questionable things along the way.

Edited by Pictish Scout, 28 May 2009 - 02:09 AM.


#6 amster

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 02:53 AM

But Cro-Magnons are modern humans. Not "apish" as the Neanderthal. I agree with you, Conan is a modern human being.


True. But when you start throwing around words like Cro-Magnon, the image that most laymen have are the guys in the Geico commercials. Painbrush (where is he, anyway?) has an avatar of Conan that looks rather "apish" IMO. Clearly that wasn't what REH had in mind.
Posted Image
Money and muscle, that's what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money won't do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world won't enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it.
--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--

#7 PainBrush

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 09:00 AM

But Cro-Magnons are modern humans. Not "apish" as the Neanderthal. I agree with you, Conan is a modern human being.


True. But when you start throwing around words like Cro-Magnon, the image that most laymen have are the guys in the Geico commercials. Painbrush (where is he, anyway?) has an avatar of Conan that looks rather "apish" IMO.

HEY , thats a picture of one of my brothers ! :lol:
Okay , brutish/primitive/primal , thats what I was aiming for , meaner & uglier than a 'modern' man , but not quite neanderthal . I don't agree that Conan was a modern man , or that Howard left any doubt about that ( see below)
That's just a sketch anyhow , something for me to work out my composition , & what colors of paint i'd need .
Posted Image
one day ( maybe soon?)
I'll post the 'improved' & better rendered actual full-size painting that was the sketch for ( but it's a HUGE canvas , can't scan it & my digital camera isn't good enough for the detail ) He's a little less uglier , but just as mean looking .
-------------------------------

Clearly that wasn't what REH had in mind.

HMMMMM , let's see exactly what REH had clearly in mind ( from a strangely deja-vu topic a while back....) make sure to read it to the end .

" At the time of the cataclysm , a band of savages , whose development was not much above that of the neanderthal , fled to the North to escape destruction . They found the snow-countries inhabited only by a species of ferocious snow-apes - huge shaggy white animals , apparently native to that climate . These they fought and drove beyond the arctic circle , to perish , as the savages thought . The latter then , adapted themselves to their hardy new environment and throve . "

"....a wanderer into the far North returned with the news that the supposedly deserted ice wastes were inhabited by an extensive tribe of ape-like men , descended he swore from the beasts driven out of the more habitable land by the ancestors of the Hyborians . He urged that a large war-party be sent beyond the arctic circle to exterminate these beasts , whom he swore were evolving into true men . "

" Here and there about the world are scattered clans of apish savages , entirely ignorant of the rise and fall of the great civilizations .....
In the far North , another people are slowly coming into existence . "
--------------------------------------------------------

" A thousand years after the lesser cataclysm ,..."

......" Among the forest covered hills of the Northwest exists wandering bands of ape-men , without human speech , or the knowledge of fire or the use of implements . They are the descendants of the Atlanteans , sunk back into the squalling chaos of jungle-bestiality from which ages ago their ancestors so laboriously crawled ."

" Look at the world 500 years later...."

"....the apish Atlanteans are beginning the long climb upward . They have completed the cycle of existence ; they have long forgotten their former existence as men ; unaware of any other former state , they are starting the climb unhelped and unhindered by human memories . To the South of them the picts remain savages , apparently defying the laws of nature by neither progressing nor retrogressing . "
------------------------------------------------------

" The tale of the next thousand years........"

" To the Northwest , the descendants of the Atlanteans , climbing unaided from apedom into primitive savagery ,.............."'

" North of Aquilonia , the Westernmost Hyborian kingdom , are the Cimmerians , ferocious savages , untamed by the invaders , but advancing rapidly from contact with them ; they are the descendants of the Atlanteans , now progressing more steadily than their old enemies the Picts who dwell in the wilderness West of Aquilonia . "

Posted Image

Edited by PainBrush, 01 June 2009 - 09:15 AM.

" You have a good point there,...put your helmet on & no-one will notice it ."
" Look for a long time at what pleases you... and longer still at what pains you "
So THIS is civilization ??!??!......

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
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#8 ?sir

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 01:17 PM

"Out of the frozen north.. a man emerges.."

Welcome back Painbrush. Your post made me try to exchange my mental image of Conan to a primeval half-monkey and keep the lady in his arms. The result - a very good story I read a few years back, called "The woman and the ape" by Peter Hoeg. I strongly recommend it:

http://www.amazon.co...g/dp/0140268448
http://www.amazon.co...g/dp/0312427123

I've been trying to find the old topic where we discussed these things but I couldn't. Can a moderator please drop the posts discussing Conan's heritage (probably starting with or right after my post where I first mentioned Cro-Magnons) in a separate topic? It would seem the discussion is not yet exhausted, and to me the idea is thrilling.

#9 ?sir

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 05:34 PM

Alright folks. I still haven't managed to find the old thread where we discussed this, and since no-one has helped by supplying a link to it I might as well start a new thread on the subject. It's in the topic - is Conan supposed to be a Cro-Magnon?

There are several signs that can be interpreted as this. What's your thoughts?

EDIT: Also, I deleted one of my posts that didn't really bring anything to the discussion.

Edited by ?sir, 01 June 2009 - 06:36 PM.


#10 PainBrush

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 10:27 AM

Alright folks. I still haven't managed to find the old thread where we discussed this, and since no-one has helped by supplying a link to it I might as well start a new thread on the subject


Here's 'one' of the topics where that stuff was discussed a year or so ago.....
-----> CONAN / CRO-MAG ? <------
( i clicked once & that link opened the page with no problems . but when I tried a second time the page wouldn't load . If it doesn't load for you the topic is in :
"General Discussions / "Something I Just Realized About Conan And Other Barbarians' " )
Or in my post above , where I quoted one of my own old posts -


- just click on the little box with the arrow & it'll go to the same page .

" You have a good point there,...put your helmet on & no-one will notice it ."
" Look for a long time at what pleases you... and longer still at what pains you "
So THIS is civilization ??!??!......

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
~ FUTUE EOS SI NON CONCIPERE IOCULARUM ~


#11 ?sir

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 12:42 PM

Yeah. That's not the one I was thinking about however.. :mellow:

EDIT: Found it in Conan on film, and bumped it.

Edited by ?sir, 03 June 2009 - 02:33 PM.


#12 rgubry

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:11 PM

I think if howard had intended Conan to be a cro mag he would have made it very clear. In many of his writings he had peoples that are referred to as primitive humans to conan, as well as races he has described as sub-human. He also had made the point that Conan is decended from the Kull dynasty, and Atlanteans, a very advanced society that after the fall, reverted to barbarism.

#13 PainBrush

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 05:33 AM

I think if howard had intended Conan to be a cro mag he would have made it very clear. In many of his writings he had peoples that are referred to as primitive humans to conan, as well as races he has described as sub-human. He also had made the point that Conan is decended from the Kull dynasty, and Atlanteans, a very advanced society that after the fall, reverted to barbarism.


Umm , yeah , very observant of you , actually Howard said they reverted back into APES .
And also , tho Cimmerians descended from apes , who descended from Atlanteans , he never once "made the point" that Conan was a member of the Kull dynasty . That was something 'vaguely' hinted at by DeCamp in "Thing in The Crypt" & elaborated on only in the Marvel Comicbooks . I'll give you an official Stan "The MAN ! :angry: " Lee "No-Prize" if you can point to anywhere Howard ever said the same thing . (we have some sharp cookies haunting these boards , you gottsta do yer homework if'n ya wanna school us ! )

-------------------------------
here's the illustrated history of mankind.......(REH style)
" At the time of the cataclysm , a band of savages , whose development was not much above that of the neanderthal ( the Picts ??! * ) , fled to the North to escape destruction . They found the snow-countries inhabited only by a species of ferocious snow-apes - huge shaggy white animals , apparently native to that climate . These they fought and drove beyond the arctic circle , to perish , as the savages thought . The latter then , adapted themselves to their hardy new environment and throve . "
Posted Image

"....a wanderer into the far North returned with the news that the supposedly deserted ice wastes were inhabited by an extensive tribe of ape-like men , descended he swore from the beasts driven out of the more habitable land by the ancestors of the Hyborians . He urged that a large war-party be sent beyond the arctic circle to exterminate these beasts , whom he swore were evolving into true men . "
Posted Image

" Here and there about the world are scattered clans of apish savages , entirely ignorant of the rise and fall of the great civilizations .....
In the far North , another people are slowly coming into existence . "
Posted Image
--------------------------------------------------------

" A thousand years after the lesser cataclysm ,..."

......" Among the forest covered hills of the Northwest exists wandering bands of ape-men , without human speech , or the knowledge of fire or the use of implements . They are the descendants of the Atlanteans , sunk back into the squalling chaos of jungle-bestiality from which ages ago their ancestors so laboriously crawled ."
Posted Image

" Look at the world 500 years later...."

"....the apish Atlanteans are beginning the long climb upward . They have completed the cycle of existence ; they have long forgotten their former existence as men ; unaware of any other former state , they are starting the climb unhelped and unhindered by human memories . To the South of them the picts * remain savages , apparently defying the laws of nature by neither progressing nor retrogressing . "
Posted ImagePosted Image
------------------------------------------------------

" The tale of the next thousand years........"

" To the Northwest , the descendants of the Atlanteans , climbing unaided from apedom into primitive savagery ,.............."'
Posted Image

" North of Aquilonia , the Westernmost Hyborian kingdom , are the Cimmerians , ferocious savages , untamed by the invaders , but advancing rapidly from contact with them ; they are the descendants of the Atlanteans , now progressing more steadily than their old enemies the Picts who dwell in the wilderness West of Aquilonia . "

Posted Image
And , if you read that carefully one more time , you can find a hint as to why hatred of the Picts is so ingrained in the Cimmerian psyche !
Posted Image

:lol: :lol:

Edited by PainBrush, 10 June 2009 - 05:38 AM.

" You have a good point there,...put your helmet on & no-one will notice it ."
" Look for a long time at what pleases you... and longer still at what pains you "
So THIS is civilization ??!??!......

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
~ FUTUE EOS SI NON CONCIPERE IOCULARUM ~


#14 Kortoso

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 05:16 PM

Nice family pictures, PB. ;)

#15 PainBrush

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 10:55 PM

HEY !
I RESE........mble that remark . :lol:

( That's my brothers in the Frazetta painting . )
Posted Image

" You have a good point there,...put your helmet on & no-one will notice it ."
" Look for a long time at what pleases you... and longer still at what pains you "
So THIS is civilization ??!??!......

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
~ FUTUE EOS SI NON CONCIPERE IOCULARUM ~


#16 rgubry

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 08:34 PM

I think if howard had intended Conan to be a cro mag he would have made it very clear. In many of his writings he had peoples that are referred to as primitive humans to conan, as well as races he has described as sub-human. He also had made the point that Conan is decended from the Kull dynasty, and Atlanteans, a very advanced society that after the fall, reverted to barbarism.


Umm , yeah , very observant of you , actually Howard said they reverted back into APES .
And also , tho Cimmerians descended from apes , who descended from Atlanteans , he never once "made the point" that Conan was a member of the Kull dynasty . That was something 'vaguely' hinted at by DeCamp in "Thing in The Crypt" & elaborated on only in the Marvel Comicbooks . I'll give you an official Stan "The MAN ! :angry: " Lee "No-Prize" if you can point to anywhere Howard ever said the same thing . (we have some sharp cookies haunting these boards , you gottsta do yer homework if'n ya wanna school us ! )

-------------------------------
here's the illustrated history of mankind.......(REH style)
" At the time of the cataclysm , a band of savages , whose development was not much above that of the neanderthal ( the Picts ??! * ) , fled to the North to escape destruction . They found the snow-countries inhabited only by a species of ferocious snow-apes - huge shaggy white animals , apparently native to that climate . These they fought and drove beyond the arctic circle , to perish , as the savages thought . The latter then , adapted themselves to their hardy new environment and throve . "
Posted Image

"....a wanderer into the far North returned with the news that the supposedly deserted ice wastes were inhabited by an extensive tribe of ape-like men , descended he swore from the beasts driven out of the more habitable land by the ancestors of the Hyborians . He urged that a large war-party be sent beyond the arctic circle to exterminate these beasts , whom he swore were evolving into true men . "
Posted Image

" Here and there about the world are scattered clans of apish savages , entirely ignorant of the rise and fall of the great civilizations .....
In the far North , another people are slowly coming into existence . "
Posted Image
--------------------------------------------------------

" A thousand years after the lesser cataclysm ,..."

......" Among the forest covered hills of the Northwest exists wandering bands of ape-men , without human speech , or the knowledge of fire or the use of implements . They are the descendants of the Atlanteans , sunk back into the squalling chaos of jungle-bestiality from which ages ago their ancestors so laboriously crawled ."
Posted Image

" Look at the world 500 years later...."

"....the apish Atlanteans are beginning the long climb upward . They have completed the cycle of existence ; they have long forgotten their former existence as men ; unaware of any other former state , they are starting the climb unhelped and unhindered by human memories . To the South of them the picts * remain savages , apparently defying the laws of nature by neither progressing nor retrogressing . "
Posted ImagePosted Image
------------------------------------------------------

" The tale of the next thousand years........"

" To the Northwest , the descendants of the Atlanteans , climbing unaided from apedom into primitive savagery ,.............."'
Posted Image

" North of Aquilonia , the Westernmost Hyborian kingdom , are the Cimmerians , ferocious savages , untamed by the invaders , but advancing rapidly from contact with them ; they are the descendants of the Atlanteans , now progressing more steadily than their old enemies the Picts who dwell in the wilderness West of Aquilonia . "

Posted Image
And , if you read that carefully one more time , you can find a hint as to why hatred of the Picts is so ingrained in the Cimmerian psyche !
Posted Image

:lol: :lol:




So Pain is this one of those king of the hill places?I was more looking for just a fun pace to talk REH stuff. But if this is a snobby purest typ of chat I'll take off.

#17 ?sir

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 12:12 AM

I think if howard had intended Conan to be a cro mag he would have made it very clear. In many of his writings he had peoples that are referred to as primitive humans to conan, as well as races he has described as sub-human. He also had made the point that Conan is decended from the Kull dynasty, and Atlanteans, a very advanced society that after the fall, reverted to barbarism.


Monkey!


So Pain is this one of those king of the hill places?I was more looking for just a fun pace to talk REH stuff. But if this is a snobby purest typ of chat I'll take off.


So just because he argues against you don't like it here? :huh: As far as I understand all Painbrush is saying is that Howard might have made it quite clear. If you think otherwise you're welcome to present your view and argue against it. I think Painbrush made some good points but the discussion isn't over by that. I for one would like to hear what you think. That's the basis for a discussion and this forum is for discussions as far as I understand. If you think Painbrush is blunt and you feel offended then all I can say to his defense is that "he's just that kind of guy". ;) Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Edited by ?sir, 19 June 2009 - 12:14 AM.


#18 PainBrush

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 02:34 AM

So Pain is this one of those king of the hill places?

Hill ? This is the MeadHall of the Mountain King newb ! :lol:

I was more looking for just a fun pace to talk REH stuff. But if this is a snobby purest typ of chat I'll take off.

hmmm , interesting response . I assure you my post ( complete with funny pictures ) was intended in a spirit of fun . THAT however , does not mean that it was not also quite serious at the same time . So let's 'talk REH stuff' ( what I believed I was doing ) - you posted erroneous information in your post above , almost from the first to last word . Then I ( maybe being a longer-term fan , maybe more knowledgeable , or maybe just a smartaleck/know-it-all , but that's irrelevant ) 'I' posted a refute to your errors as to what Howard 'intended' Conan to be , or 'be like' , with 'exact', word-for-word quotes , where he DID in fact state VERY CLEARLY , in more than '1' place his ideas of Cimmerians & their place in 'evolution' (his imaginary evolution of Hyboria) .

The quotes above where Howard stated very clearly that Cimmerians are/were in fact the most primitive/last to evolve people in the Hyborian age (arcane remnants/winged gorillas/island mutants/troglodytes excepted...) They only 'BARELY' are ahead of the Picts because they interact with other peoples to a higher degree than the Picts . I have several more paragraphs , directly from Howard besides the ones above that further say the exact same things ( but I got tired of posting funny pictures ) . Try reading T.O.T.Elephant sometime ( it's a short one , easy to understand) read real slow when the elephant starts talking .

If you or anyone , like Aesir ( whaddaya mean "Might have made it clear " ?? :lol: ) have ANY , and I mean even a 'HINT' of anything otherwise Howard intended Cimmerians to "be" or "be like" , please by all means steal my thunder and prove me wrong with a quote or quotations by Howard , and I guarantee you on my honor , I won't start shouting " ah pooh-pooh , elitism , snobbery , smart-peoples , unggggh ! "

I can save you a little time tho , I've looked for over 20-some years , & am very confident of what I posted .

( okay , end smartaleck mode , )
I know you can't possibly be that thin-skinned that a long-time regular member humorously hammering your post a bit to test the rivets will drive you off aye ? :blink: You do know what forum you are on right ? We don't talk teletubbies or care-bears here often ! hahahahhah :lol: Now pick up your axe.......

" You have a good point there,...put your helmet on & no-one will notice it ."
" Look for a long time at what pleases you... and longer still at what pains you "
So THIS is civilization ??!??!......

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~ FUTUE EOS SI NON CONCIPERE IOCULARUM ~


#19 Pictish Scout

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 11:05 AM

I think it is very clear that Cimmerians evolved from apes that once were Atlanteans. But I don't think Cimmerians are apish in any way. They evolved from apes, so did everyone on this forum, and that?s it. Also Conan's description isn't much different from kull's who I believe was a homo sapiens sapiens, like everyone here.

(Cimmerians) ?were descendents of the ancient Atlanteans, though they themselves were unaware of their descent, having evolved by their own efforts from the ape-men to which their ancient ancestors had sunk.?

I think this can be said of all of us, accept for the ?Atlantean? part. Only in the XX century we became aware of our descent, and we evolved by our own efforts, etc. Also, according to this quote Cimmerians EVOLVED FROM APE-MEN, so if they EVOLVED they are not apish anymore. Howard doesn?t say they are still evolving?

?They were a tall, powerful race, averaging six feet in height. They were black-haired, and gray or blue-eyed. They were dolichocephalic, and dark-skinned??

Quotes from ?Notes on Various Peoples of the Hyborean Age?.
I don?t see any apish characteristic in hyborean age Cimmerians. At least in The Hour of the Dragon Conan easily disguises himself as a Stygian and Stygians aren?t apish in any way.
I think Cimmerians are ?savages? in their culture and mannerisms but not physically apish.

#20 PainBrush

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:05 AM

I think this can be said of all of us, accept for the ?Atlantean? part. Only in the XX century we became aware of our descent, and we evolved by our own efforts, etc. Also, according to this quote Cimmerians EVOLVED FROM APE-MEN, so if they EVOLVED they are not apish anymore. Howard doesn?t say they are still evolving?

? ? ?

" the Cimmerians , ferocious savages , untamed by the invaders , but advancing rapidly from contact with them ; they are the descendants of the Atlanteans , now progressing more steadily than their old enemies the Picts..... "

Not abso. positive of what you mean , would you argue that even 'us' modern homo-sapiens are through evolving ? There's more than just a 'few' people who would argue with you if so ( me as one !) We will continue to 'evolve' until we are completely free of disease and any genetic deformities , OR until we finish using up this world , or completely succumb to disease/genetic deformities & we also go extinct like 98% of all life that has ever existed till now .
A philosophy ? - Aye , of sorts , but a dark un ! Quaff , Oh quaff this kind nepenthe ! Drown me in the Lethe ! :unsure:


I think Cimmerians are ?savages? in their culture and mannerisms but not physically apish.

I agree , my "cavemen" pictures a few posts back were just intended as a humorous way to draw the eye to the sometimes overlooked details in those Howard statements ( about 'evolution' as REH saw it ) . I don't think cimmerians are physically apish either , Howard calls them men . But I.M.humble Opinion -he leaves no confusion that they are more primitive/primal men .
I don't actually know if trying to classify a subspecies of humans as "cro-magnon" is even still a valid scientific classification , but even waay back when the current thinking was that monkey<ape<neanderthal<cro-magnon<homo sapiens , it was still very evident that what were identified as being cro-magnons were very much "men" & not very apish if at all , just slightly more primitive than "modern man" (H. Sapiens) . That was still very much the common/current 'scientific' idea of it all at the time REH was writing .
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I'd place Cimmerians about ummm , 2nd from the right in that picture ( me too !) , the guy furthest to the right being "modern homo sapiens sapiens" . :lol:

Edited by PainBrush, 26 June 2009 - 08:47 AM.

" You have a good point there,...put your helmet on & no-one will notice it ."
" Look for a long time at what pleases you... and longer still at what pains you "
So THIS is civilization ??!??!......

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~ FUTUE EOS SI NON CONCIPERE IOCULARUM ~