[TortolaBVI]

With any and all Conan writings published during his lifetime in the public domain, there are also certain area's (geographical) that said property hasn't been registered as a trademark. Something virtually identical came up when a South African company named themselves Cyberdyne Systems, and the rights-holders to the Terminator franchise of films tried to sue. They failed, because the name Cyberdyne Systems was never registered as a trademark in South Africa.

The same loophole allows the direct adaptation of The Devil In Iron for television to be made. We may not create additional situations based directly on the story itself but CAN create new characters and situations not featured at any point in the REH Canon.

We just need to be careful where we tread.

At this stage the script is nearing completion with British television director Graham Harper in consideration to helm the television production.

[godzilladude]

TortolaBVI, on Jun 25 2009, 04:57 AM, said:

With any and all Conan writings published during his lifetime in the public domain, there are also certain area's (geographical) that said property hasn't been registered as a trademark. Something virtually identical came up when a South African company named themselves Cyberdyne Systems, and the rights-holders to the Terminator franchise of films tried to sue. They failed, because the name Cyberdyne Systems was never registered as a trademark in South Africa.

The same loophole allows the direct adaptation of The Devil In Iron for television to be made. We may not create additional situations based directly on the story itself but CAN create new characters and situations not featured at any point in the REH Canon.

We just need to be careful where we tread.

At this stage the script is nearing completion with British television director Graham Harper in consideration to helm the television production.

Remember the Conan Canon is HUGE, betwixt the pastiche books, comics, movies, etc. Good luck!

[crossplain pilgrim]

Well, tortola, welcome back! Interesting news. I believe it was late March when you last posted on the forum. At that time you said the production was being mounted by producers Gareth Neame and Todd London and that John MIlius was involved in writing the script. I looked for Mr. Harper on IMDb and could not find him. Perhaps you could give us a few more details. I recall from your previous posts that there were a number of forum members who were quite skeptical of this production and there were quite a few who were cautiously sympathetic. Are you saying now that this production has advanced since your last post and is now definitely going to be produced for British television? That would be some news indeed.

[TortolaBVI]

crossplain pilgrim, on Jun 25 2009, 02:39 PM, said:

Well, tortola, welcome back! Interesting news. I believe it was late March when you last posted on the forum. At that time you said the production was being mounted by producers Gareth Neame and Todd London and that John MIlius was involved in writing the script. I looked for Mr. Harper on IMDb and could not find him. Perhaps you could give us a few more details. I recall from your previous posts that there were a number of forum members who were quite skeptical of this production and there were quite a few who were cautiously sympathetic. Are you saying now that this production has advanced since your last post and is now definitely going to be produced for British television? That would be some news indeed.

I'm sorry to hear that so many people consider this to be a bogus story, nothing worse than some rumor that get's picked up as fact, i.e Michael Bay leaving the Transformers franchise, Eddie Murphy playing The Riddler in the sequel to The Dark Knight and Roland Kickinger being hired as the new Conan.

As for the director in question, turns out i spelt that gentlemen's name wrong. Here is his IMDB bio: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0363865/

Any information that i am posting has gone through the powers that be. If there isn't anything more to say, i would rather keep it that way than invite rampant speculation. There seems enough of that with the Red Nails cartoon and Conan theatrical film.

The actual legal minefield is exactly that, but there IS a clear path, albiet rather convaluted. We know what we can do, and what we can't. Television productions of literary properties that are defacto in the public domain are extremely widespread. Only a complete cretin would spend a fortune to the rights for something that was only a few years away from being in the public domain regardless of character copyright. I know of a number of production companies that are awaiting the same for the writings of H G Wells, who died in 1946...

[crossplain pilgrim]

Well, there is no doubt about Mr. Harper's bonafides. (As I recall, you, and the other principals involved worked on the "Rome" series.) Mr. Harper has worked (or works) on some very well-known, high end British series. You said you hope you can avoid rampant speculation by not saying too much. It seems to me that a lack of information is likely to prompt speculation. So, if there is anything more you are at liberty to divulge, I would (if it were me) get it out there. Regardless, I am sure there are more than a few forum members who will be weighing your most recent post with great interest.

[Head-On-A-Pike]

Again, I find myself far more intrigued and excited about this British TV production than I do about the Hollywood movie. In general, the Brits just do literary adaptations right, and tend not to assume that no one watching has actually read the damned source material! I think that is what will distinguish it from the theatrical movie, which I expect to be "badass" in an overly modern, "cool" way. More of an MTV Movie Awards-winner type deal than a real Conan movie.

I expect anyone looking for a Conan production that comes off feeling historical and literary might find what they're looking for in the British TV movie. At least that's what I'm hoping!

I wish the best of luck and speed to Tortola and all of the folks working on this!

[Crom's bells]

Aye yes please, even if the movie were to suck, it'd be a huge consolation if the TV series turned out alright. Of course we can hope that both movie and TV series turn out pleasing to Howardians, but you know what they say about hope...

Nevertheless, all the best to you and the crew. And if John Milius really is working on the script, don't forget to remind him after his morning coffee that Conan belongs to Howard, not him

[thundarr]

Good Luck with the production Tortola. As skeptical as I remain (heck, I still retain a a certain level of skepticism towards the "official" Conan movie) I would dearly love to see this production come to fruition and turn out great. Keep us posted.

[crossplain pilgrim]

Crom, on Jun 25 2009, 07:16 PM, said:

... it'd be a huge consolation if the TV series turned out alright. Of course we can hope that both movie and TV series turn out pleasing to Howardians, but you know what they say about hope...

Nevertheless, all the best to you and the crew. And if John Milius really is working on the script, don't forget to remind him after his morning coffee that Conan belongs to Howard, not him

I believe this is intended as a film rather than a series. I thought back in March that it was pretty brave of Tortola to come on the forum and give his own, and the producers real names. Added a lot of credibility. There are, of course, many forum members who would be pleased as punch if there were both a theatrical film and a British TV film. That the British do period films well is a given (though I think the Russians have produced a number of really good ones recently). I'd love to see it happen. I can't see CPI, Paradox, or Millennium letting this film proceed without a legal challenge. So the producers are very much going to need a lot of luck and fairly deep legal pockets.

Oh, yea. No one ever went far wrong overestimating the size of John Milius's ego. But the guy has proved he can be an eloquent writer of period films. He just happened to view Conan as a samurai movie with some reluctantly thrown-in sorcery stuff. Remember he came up with the idea for "Rome" even if others carried it out.

We've often discussed on these boards how many of Howard's stories were almost intimate in size and were well-suited to a more modest type of TV film. Oddly, "The Devil in Iron" is much broader in scope than say, "Tower of the Elephant." It would take a pretty heft budget to put it on even a TV screen. We'll see.

[Taranaich]

TortolaBVI, on Jun 25 2009, 10:57 AM, said:

The same loophole allows the direct adaptation of The Devil In Iron for television to be made.

So basically, not only is a direct adaptations desirable from a fan's point of view, but it's actually essential to the production so that it can't be sued? Does anyone else find the clause that the production must stick like glue to REH's words absolutely delightful?

Quote

We may not create additional situations based directly on the story itself but CAN create new characters and situations not featured at any point in the REH Canon.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this: does this mean you can, say, add a sidekick so long as he's completely original, but can't - say - stick Thoth-Amon in the story?

Quote

Again, I find myself far more intrigued and excited about this British TV production than I do about the Hollywood movie.

Oh yes. I don't think us Brits have the monopoly on fine productions by a long shot, but because we only have five terrestrial channels shows need to be a lot more high-quality to get on TV. Plus we seem to have a thing for historical dramas, and with the recent Merlin and Robin Hood series, fantasy is starting to get a foothold. Excellent time to pursue Conan.

Quote

Aye yes please, even if the movie were to suck, it'd be a huge consolation if the TV series turned out alright. Of course we can hope that both movie and TV series turn out pleasing to Howardians, but you know what they say about hope...

At this point I have very little hope for the film. Even if Nispel goes to 11, even if the dreaded leaked script is wrong, there are still things that I disagree with regarding CPI's view and handling of the Hyborian Age which I am pretty sure will be included in some manner: the upgrade of Thoth-Amon to nemesis, the Aquiromians, Uberboreans etc. So even if the script and directors and actors are right... it still won't really be Conan to me. Many seem perfectly happy with the Dark Horse adaptation, and all power to them, but I'm just one of those curmudgeons who dislikes the current visual style of Conan.

However, this production has the potential to be different. Away from Paradox, and without the decades of pastiches, comics and games added in, they really have the opportunity to create an adaptation that is based on pure Howard. By that, I mean they don't have the baggage of those things leaning on them, and can concentrate purely on one story, rather than trying to make it fit into a saga. Indeed, it might even be desirable to move away from the art style seen in Age of Conan and the comics to further distance themselves, and avoiding their infringement on the visual as well as literary level.

This could be something special. While I do feel that the copyright complications are unfortunate, the fact of the matter is REH died over 70 years ago. Only his characters have been adapted to film thus far, all with entirely new stories, despite Howard being universally praised for his storytelling. Characters, not stories. Even with television, we have had exactly one adaptation. ONE. In a hard-to-find anthology show.

For a writer who wrote over three hundred stories and considered one of the pillars of modern fantasy fiction, this is a simply ridiculous state of affairs. I cannot criticize CPI for defending their adopted intellectual property, but when their Conan production has been wallowing in production hell for seven years, to prevent the production of another adaptation which promises to do more justice to REH than any before - to the point that they're willing to tangle with copyright law - I just hope they'll see the big picture and not thwart this incredible possibility.

CPI, Paradox, Mr. Malmberg, whoever's listening: please, don't ruin this. Let them make "The Devil in Iron": it's free publicity, they're willing to defend their legal position, it isn't direct competition for the film (if it even gets made) and if it's good enough, it'll turn people on to Conan and REH, boosting your hits, interest and profits. The positives far, FAR outweigh the negatives, in my belief.

And you chaps making the film: don't show me up by abandoning it or making it a half-baked Hallmark movie.

[Scott Oden]

If the character of Conan, as created by REH, is under trademark with Paradox, I still don't see how a movie featuring REH's character can be made . . . sure, the story is perhaps in public domain, but the name and the image/indicia/what-have-you are not. How is this possible?

Perplexed,

Scott

[crossplain pilgrim]

Taranaich, on Jun 26 2009, 01:39 AM, said:

CPI, Paradox, Mr. Malmberg, whoever's listening: please, don't ruin this. Let them make "The Devil in Iron": it's free publicity, they're willing to defend their legal position, it isn't direct competition for the film (if it even gets made) and if it's good enough, it'll turn people on to Conan and REH, boosting your hits, interest and profits. The positives far, FAR outweigh the negatives, in my belief.

And you chaps making the film: don't show me up by abandoning it or making it a half-baked Hallmark movie.

However much I would like to see this film, I can already hear those wheels turning at CPI and Paradox. If they allow an English production, what's to stop one in France, Germany, Spain, Japan or anywhere else?

[Almuric]

I am very confuzzled as well.

[Taranaich]

crossplain pilgrim, on Jun 26 2009, 03:28 AM, said:

However much I would like to see this film, I can already hear those wheels turning at CPI and Paradox. If they allow an English production, what's to stop one in France, Germany, Spain, Japan or anywhere else?

Nothing, and that's exactly the point. The stories are out of copyright there, so those stories, and only those stories, can be adapted. (As is my understanding, Legalese is not my first language).

However, since CPI/Paradox own the Conan character trademark, they still have dominion over things like action figures, comics, video games, RPGs, board games, and new fiction featuring the character like the Age of Conan novels and the upcoming Belit novel. Conan has proved a character people are interested enough in to consider new adaptations not specifically tied to Robert E. Howard. Imagine if the Tolkien estate decided to open up Middle-earth to new authors: sure there'd be the purist outcry, but I'm positive they'd still be a success. Same with Conan: even without the original tales, there are still those stories not in the public domain, as well as the non-REH related materials.

[Primeval]

Taranaich, on Jun 26 2009, 05:30 AM, said:

...and the upcoming Belit novel....

Sorry to sidetrack things (I am looking forward to the TV Conan much more than the movie though) but I haven't been around much - could you direct me to more info on this?

[Scott Oden]

Quote

However, since CPI/Paradox own the Conan character trademark, they still have dominion over things like action figures, comics, video games, RPGs, board games, and new fiction featuring the character like the Age of Conan novels and the upcoming Belit novel. Conan has proved a character people are interested enough in to consider new adaptations not specifically tied to Robert E. Howard. Imagine if the Tolkien estate decided to open up Middle-earth to new authors: sure there'd be the purist outcry, but I'm positive they'd still be a success. Same with Conan: even without the original tales, there are still those stories not in the public domain, as well as the non-REH related materials.

IANAL, but doesn't trademarks also cover the image of the character. As in the image seen in films? Thus, wouldn't you be opening up a whole legal can of worms if you shot a movie featuring a barbarian named Conan, wandering about in a time before the oceans drank Atlantis, no matter the story?

You propose something interesting, Taranaich. That said, I don't care one whit about seeing REH's Conan with the serial numbers filed off. But Hyborian Age stories (duly licensed from the rights-holders) I'd love to see. Give me the story of Shevatas or Belit before Conan, but keep any "new" tales of Conan; they're bound to disappoint because they will be but an anemic shadow of REH.

Best,

Scott

[Crom's bells]

I'm confused. So this is a TV production, but it's not going to be a serial? Aren't they operating on a low budget then, and if so, where will they reap the profits from when the time comes?

My main concern is the budget, because I've not known of any huge budget Brit shows so far, at least compared to America

[Waldgeist]

Scott Oden, on Jun 26 2009, 07:01 AM, said:

Quote

However, since CPI/Paradox own the Conan character trademark, they still have dominion over things like action figures, comics, video games, RPGs, board games, and new fiction featuring the character like the Age of Conan novels and the upcoming Belit novel. Conan has proved a character people are interested enough in to consider new adaptations not specifically tied to Robert E. Howard. Imagine if the Tolkien estate decided to open up Middle-earth to new authors: sure there'd be the purist outcry, but I'm positive they'd still be a success. Same with Conan: even without the original tales, there are still those stories not in the public domain, as well as the non-REH related materials.

IANAL, but doesn't trademarks also cover the image of the character. As in the image seen in films? Thus, wouldn't you be opening up a whole legal can of worms if you shot a movie featuring a barbarian named Conan, wandering about in a time before the oceans drank Atlantis, no matter the story?

You propose something interesting, Taranaich. That said, I don't care one whit about seeing REH's Conan with the serial numbers filed off. But Hyborian Age stories (duly licensed from the rights-holders) I'd love to see. Give me the story of Shevatas or Belit before Conan, but keep any "new" tales of Conan; they're bound to disappoint because they will be but an anemic shadow of REH.

Best,

Scott

At least in german law, there is no way to get a trademark on a character. They can only register a trademark on simple, defineable things like a word and a graphic/logo, but not on something as a human character. It's a bit like the silly patents that are signed in the US for something like a click of a mousebutton. Those are called "trivial" in most european countries and can neither be patented or trademarked.

As they are a european production i guess that even if its possible to register a trademark on the "rough outlines" of a prosaic character besides his name/logo in the USA, then they have no problem in europe, because you cannot register a trademark on that here.

Cheers,
Waldgeist

This post has been edited by Waldgeist: 26 June 2009 - 07:38 AM

[Head-On-A-Pike]

Crom, on Jun 26 2009, 01:49 AM, said:

I'm confused. So this is a TV production, but it's not going to be a serial? Aren't they operating on a low budget then, and if so, where will they reap the profits from when the time comes?

My main concern is the budget, because I've not known of any huge budget Brit shows so far, at least compared to America

I don't think this necessarily has to have an enormous budget. A little fx money goes a long way these days, and the cast would likely be mostly unknowns, who come with small price tags. I'm sure something like Gormenghast hadn't much of a budget, and it looked great for something made 9 years ago. Surely The Devil In Iron could be put together for a reasonable sum. People can do TV effects from 9 years ago on their home computers now. Like I always say, a limited budget encourages inventive thinking.

Also, I would be more than willing to meet halfway with some limited production values in exchange for the chance to possibly see Howard's work get the kind of screen treatment that the works of Arthur Conan Doyle, Charles Dickens, Thomas Hardy or Bram Stoker -- just to name a few examples -- have gotten in the past.

[Ironhand]

Somebody, Taranaich, I think, mentioned Merlin as an example of the quality of British productions. Which Merlin production is that? I hope it isn't the tv series depicting Merlin as the teenage body servant of Prince Arthur, who is growing up in the court of his father the king of Camelot.