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#1 Slokes

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 10:36 PM

I never thought of myself as politically correct, but "Shadows Of Zamboula" left me feeling at a loss. I came to this story well aware that Robert E. Howard was a man of his time and place, and there are stories like "Moon Of Zembabwae" which have undeniable (to me) racist implications, but "Zembabwae" seemed like a Berkeley singalong compared to this. The black people in the story, well, calling them "people" seems a bit of a stretch. They are actually brutes who are ignorant, superstitious, smelly, and murderous to the point of filing their teeth in order to eat their prey. Whenever Howard describes them, adjectives like "ape-like" and "brutish" predominate. I'd hate for someone to read this story and think that's what appeals to people about Conan.

The rest of the story is pretty weak, too, by my lights, with only a few points of favor. The notion of a cheap inn where people check in but they don't check out is interesting, but instead of using it as a straight revenge piece, Howard has Conan [SPOILER ALERT] escape through the outer door, which somehow doesn't lock from the outside the way the door to the rest of the inn does, and then happen to run into a naked woman, who just happens to be the princess of the city in disguise (though it's hard to imagine her incognito in that getup). Howard spends a while having Conan (and us) leer at her unclothed situation, the Cimmerian uttering such dopey blandishments as "Beauty like yours might drive a man mad," as he gropes her.

In addition to being politically incorrect, the presence of the Darfur slaves raises another question: What municipal authority would allow part of its population to wander around at night eating the taxpayers? Especially slaves. Slavery meant keeping a tight rein on the slaves, end stop. I read Frederick Douglass's first memoir, where slaveholders broke up a gathering of slaves who were trying to learn how to read. Here in Zamboula, we're asked to believe that the authorities don't "clean out these black dogs" (to use Conan's colorful term) because they are afraid there might be unrest.

"They are valuable slaves," murmured the girl. "There are so many of them they might revolt if they were denied the flesh for which they lust. The people of Zamboula know they skulk the streets at night, and all are careful to remain within locked doors, except when something unforseen happens, as it did to me. The blacks prey on anything they can catch, but they seldom catch anybody but strangers. The people of Zamboula are not concerned with the strangers that pass through the city."


If you can't walk the streets of your town without fear of being someone's bedtime snack, I'd say you have something less than "valuable slaves" on your hands.

Even the visit to the temple was weak. The reason for Conan going there, and risking his life, is "Zabibi's" beauty. He is so impelled by this that he can't think of anything else. Conan's libido has come into play before, but not so pronouncedly. He's not this much of a horndog, to wander aimlessly inside a darkened temple on the off-chance a wizard may be persuaded to give this woman an antidote to her lover's madness.

I did like some things about it, like the confrontation between Conan and Baal-pteor. Conan is still stuck with some groaner lines ("Blast your soul!"), and the mesmerism thing goes on a bit long, but the choke-off is pretty good. Like Conan's parting taunt especially: "Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string?"

The ending is also good, really good, good enough to remind me that this is Howard we are talking about. He winds up the cannibal angle about as well as can be expected, then really does well with the Zabibi arc. She stands Conan up, but you can respect her position, and better yet, share a laugh with the Cimmerian as he rides off.

What a shame the rest of the tale wasn't up to the standard set by "Shadows Of Zamboula's" conclusion. Anyway, I'd love to hear from others with similar or different takes. Is this indeed Conan's worst story, or do I need to read "Vale Of Lost Women"?

#2 BizarroFett

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 11:18 PM

ya know... i look at these stories as "fantasy" and as such, they are what they are. i mean if they are describing someone, or a race as brutish it's because they are so. it was a different time, and different place. not like it was said " the brutish ******s are eating people"... so yea i don't think it's all that racist.


#3 PFunkJAzz

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 12:41 AM

I certainly have a hard time reading through some of Howard's fiction where his racist attitudes distract from the story. I don't excuse it because he was of a time and place where racism was the norm, but I don't want to see it edited out either. In general, the stories are good enough, the racism gets pushed into a dank little corner of Howard's brain. However, such writings will require some kind of modifications if they expect to be adapted for a modern film-going audience. A verbatim adaptation would be a box-office loser.

#4 PFunkJAzz

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 12:42 AM

so yea i don't think it's all that racist.


Ah, so it is racist.

#5 Mikey_C

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 01:03 AM

This story gave me an insight into racism. If you enslave someone then you're going to be afraid of them, not only because you know they will hate you for what you've done - but also because you need to dehumanise them in your mind to justify to yourself and others what you are doing.

This is the psychology behind the tale and I'm sure REH was tapping into the attitudes around him, which we know he shared to a large extent. Writing horror is all about pushing buttons, and those racial issues sure were sensitive at the time, as they are nowadays, although for opposite reasons.

Logically however, the story is fairly ridiculous for the reasons you've identified. But it has its moments.
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#6 amster

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 01:13 AM

Logically however, the story is fairly ridiculous for the reasons you've identified. But it has its moments.


Damn skippy! MEoZ almost leaves me less than completely satisfied. I think that the sum of its parts is actually greater than the story as a whole. What it has are great scenes, some of the best in the entire series; Zambibi's cobra dance, Conan turning on the innkeeper in a plot twist very similar to the stories in E.C. Comics, and of course, the showdown with Baal Pteor.
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--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--

#7 PFunkJAzz

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 01:44 AM

, the showdown with Baal Pteor.


Howard get kudos for portraying this great battle without racial epithets. It was a true battle of wills and even though Conan cursed B-P as a "son of a ****" and a "brown dog" the narrative doesn't cross didn't the line as in "Vale" or "Moon of Skulls"

#8 Ironhand

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 07:17 AM

The first time I read it, I thought the story was racist while I was reading it, but by the time I finished it, I didn't think it was racist. The cannibal slaves are members of a particular tribe, or nation, the Darfari. Near the end of the story, Conan encounters a black slave who is not a Darfar or a cannibal, and recognizes that he is not a menace.

I don't know whether this is sufficient. What do you guys think?
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
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#9 amster

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 01:44 PM

The first time I read it, I thought the story was racist while I was reading it, but by the time I finished it, I didn't think it was racist. The cannibal slaves are members of a particular tribe, or nation, the Darfari. Near the end of the story, Conan encounters a black slave who is not a Darfar or a cannibal, and recognizes that he is not a menace.

I don't know whether this is sufficient. What do you guys think?


I can see how someone like PFunkJAzz would find this and other stories such as the Hyena or Vale of Lost Women racially offensive, and I would agree that REH at times uses language that is insensitive at best. I think to fully understand MEoZ, one has to look at it through the barbarism vs. civilization dynamic. REH is pretty consistent in his portrayal of all forms of slavery as something that is evil and corrupt, and in the case of Zamboula, the existence of a permanent slave underclass has evolved into an upside down civilization where the slave class have become the predators and the ruling class are actually lower down on the food chain. I would also note that in most Conan tales, MEoZ included, the story is told by Conan's point of view, and that he is the moral compass of the story. And in MEoZ, although Conan kills a few Darfari in defense, he doesn't seemed to be absolutely shocked and revolted by their behavior, and reserves his real indignation for those among the ruling class who maintain the status quo, particularly the innkeeper. I think Conan would be perfectly okay to watch the Darfari completely overthrow the government and feast on all of them.
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--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--

#10 Strom

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 03:58 PM

The first time I read it, I thought the story was racist while I was reading it, but by the time I finished it, I didn't think it was racist. The cannibal slaves are members of a particular tribe, or nation, the Darfari. Near the end of the story, Conan encounters a black slave who is not a Darfar or a cannibal, and recognizes that he is not a menace.

I don't know whether this is sufficient. What do you guys think?


That is exactly how I've always interpreted the story. I never felt that Howard was protraying all blacks - just a cannbalistic, evil group. I understand such differentiation is impossible in today's world - but I think Howard purposely ratcheted up the descriptive element to enhance the story.

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#11 Bingam Vici

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 05:00 PM

When I read this short story that have not seen anything about racism and a sexism.
Story as the story.
But when I have started to do article about ?Shadows in Zamboula?, began to look history of publications, to read articles on different sites with surprise has found out that this story is perceived how is written above.
And I do not penetrate especially, simply it is Hyboria.

#12 Haemogoblin

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 05:08 PM

The first time I read it, I thought the story was racist while I was reading it, but by the time I finished it, I didn't think it was racist. The cannibal slaves are members of a particular tribe, or nation, the Darfari. Near the end of the story, Conan encounters a black slave who is not a Darfar or a cannibal, and recognizes that he is not a menace.

I don't know whether this is sufficient. What do you guys think?

I think you're spot on in that this story isn't any more racist than most others, but the pervasive racism of Howard's work does run through it. Almost anytime two races enter into his fiction it becomes quite clear that the white man is superior.

Edited by Haemogoblin, 30 May 2009 - 05:08 PM.

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#13 PFunkJAzz

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 06:41 PM

I think to fully understand MEoZ, one has to look at it through the barbarism vs. civilization dynamic. REH is pretty consistent in his portrayal of all forms of slavery as something that is evil and corrupt, and in the case of Zamboula, the existence of a permanent slave underclass has evolved into an upside down civilization where the slave class have become the predators and the ruling class are actually lower down on the food chain. I would also note that in most Conan tales, MEoZ included, the story is told by Conan's point of view, and that he is the moral compass of the story. And in MEoZ, although Conan kills a few Darfari in defense, he doesn't seemed to be absolutely shocked and revolted by their behavior, and reserves his real indignation for those among the ruling class who maintain the status quo, particularly the innkeeper. I think Conan would be perfectly okay to watch the Darfari completely overthrow the government and feast on all of them.


True, Howard does define the cannibals as a cult of perversion and Conan is motivated by self-preservation more than, say, a moralistic genocidal purge.

#14 amster

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 01:47 AM

?I am Baal-pteor,? the man answered. ?Once, long ago and in another land, I had another name. But this is a good name, and why Totrasmek gave it to me, any temple wench can tell you.?

This line has always gotten a chuckle out of me, and I'm just curious if other people interpret it the way that I do. Is Baal-pteor boasting about the size of his genatalia, and is REH making a joke about the fact that the name sounds close to "Ball Peter", two euphemisms for male genatalia? That's how I read it.
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--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--

#15 BizarroFett

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 02:13 AM

“I am Baal-pteor,” the man answered. “Once, long ago and in another land, I had another name. But this is a good name, and why Totrasmek gave it to me, any temple wench can tell you.”

This line has always gotten a chuckle out of me, and I'm just curious if other people interpret it the way that I do. Is Baal-pteor boasting about the size of his genatalia, and is REH making a joke about the fact that the name sounds close to "Ball Peter", two euphemisms for male genatalia? That's how I read it.

hehehe, it does kinda sound like ball peter. awesome. you may come to learn i get a laugh out of genitalia and fart jokes...

Edited by BizarroFett, 01 June 2009 - 02:13 AM.



#16 PFunkJAzz

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 06:11 AM

?I am Baal-pteor,? the man answered. ?Once, long ago and in another land, I had another name. But this is a good name, and why Totrasmek gave it to me, any temple wench can tell you.?

This line has always gotten a chuckle out of me, and I'm just curious if other people interpret it the way that I do. Is Baal-pteor boasting about the size of his genatalia, and is REH making a joke about the fact that the name sounds close to "Ball Peter", two euphemisms for male genatalia? That's how I read it.


I had the impression B-P was made a eunuch. Totrasmek seemed a covetous voyeur. He would watch B-P rape women kidnapped from the streets, but his ultimate act was to have the coveted gentalia removed and saved it off in his freaky little closet. No inferences to support this. Just a nasty little vibe I get. :o

#17 Libaax

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 12:01 PM

Have people seen racism in other Conan stories than this ?

Calling people of Darfur brutes,barbaric isnt anything. I have read 13 Conan stories and most of the slaves havent even been black in stories. Its too much this seeing racism where it doesnt exist.


I almost expect people from Texas and early 1900s to show more racism in thier works than REH has done. Instead i saw REH putting in Punt,other black people nations writing them like people, barbaric sure since the western Hyborians are the civilised ones. But Conan are also true barbarian.

Im from Somalia who was Punt in the old days. In "Jewels of Gwahlur" i was so glad seeing in our nation in REH's world. Conan going to Punt in the end made me laugh :)

Thats the opposite of some writers from REH era. They didnt write about black people without showing true racism in their works......

Edited by Libaax, 04 June 2009 - 12:03 PM.


#18 Slokes

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 02:40 AM

Have people seen racism in other Conan stories than this ?

Calling people of Darfur brutes,barbaric isnt anything. I have read 13 Conan stories and most of the slaves havent even been black in stories. Its too much this seeing racism where it doesnt exist.


It's not the description of blacks as slaves that bothers me, but Howard's frequent use of brutish, semi-human descriptors in describing them. True, savagery is a common thing in Howard's fiction, often celebrated, but it's clear he is using the blacks here in a different context than other races of people we encounter in other Howard stories, with the possible exception of the Picts.

I don't know if Howard was himself racist, or just conscious of what certain elements of his audience would want and expect. I think it was more the latter, as some here suggest with his more respectful handling of Baal-Pteor. Blacks do not come off well in his stories generally, though, and while it goes with the terrority, it's not any easier to digest.

#19 crossplain pilgrim

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 03:56 AM

Somewhere on this forum there is a very lengthy thread in which Howard's racism was debated in voluminous detail. As has been said so many times, Howard was a man of his times who was raised in rural Texas in the first half of the 20th Century. Had he not been influenced by the racism that totally permeated the world he knew, it would have been something of a miracle. I grew up in the old segregated South and know exactly how pervasive were the bigoted attitudes of that world. One said and believed things simply because you grew up hearing them from everyone you cared about and had never heard anything else.

What is amazing to me is that Howard varied his depiction of Africans and African-Americans from story to story. Often it was derogatory and dismissive, but not always. He wrote a poem that was a glowing tribute to Shaka Zulu. N'longa is clearly the leader-strategist that Solomon Kane follows and with whom he has an almost father-son relationship. Those two works alone would have been more than enough to get him ostracized by many of his neighbors if they had ever read them. I would cut REH a little slack. After all, he had a few negative things to say about many other ethnic groups, both historical and fictional. Except the Irish, of course. I believe he even took a swipe at them in some of his letters.

I, too, choose to believe Howard was describing one particular group of Africans in tMEofZ, not damning the entire race. There was a time when Hollywood routinely equated a Southern accent with ignorance and stupidity. Rural white Southerners chewed tobacco, were dirty, needed a shave, and wore ragged clothes to boot. My father was raised on a small farm in 1930's Alabama and I thought he was a pretty smart guy. Never-the-less, I accept the idea that the studios were portraying mythical stereotypes and laugh along with the nonsense. Anyway, Hollywood would never portray Southerners as ignorant and bigoted people nowadays.
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#20 amster

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 04:32 AM

[quote name='PFunkJAzz' post='121856' date='Jun 1 2009, 01:11 AM']I had the impression B-P was made a eunuch. Totrasmek seemed a covetous voyeur. He would watch B-P rape women kidnapped from the streets, but his ultimate act was to have the coveted gentalia removed and saved it off in his freaky little closet. No inferences to support this. Just a nasty little vibe I get. :o[/quote]

Uh...yeah...relying on the vibes you get is probably not the best approach to take when it comes to interpreting a work of fiction. It would probably be difficult to get a passing grade on a second grade book report using that approach. I find its more effective to look for clues in the actual text.


[quote name='Libaax']Have people seen racism in other Conan stories than this ?

Calling people of Darfur brutes,barbaric isnt anything. I have read 13 Conan stories and most of the slaves havent even been black in stories. Its too much this seeing racism where it doesnt exist.

I almost expect people from Texas and early 1900s to show more racism in thier works than REH has done. Instead i saw REH putting in Punt,other black people nations writing them like people, barbaric sure since the western Hyborians are the civilised ones. But Conan are also true barbarian.[/quote]

Its good to hear a fresh perspective on the subject. Thanks. :)

[quote]I'm from Somalia who was Punt in the old days. In "Jewels of Gwahlur" i was so glad seeing in our nation in REH's world. Conan going to Punt in the end made me laugh[/quote]

Wow! I had no iead that they Hyborian Ages' Punt was based on Somalia. That's very interesting.

[quote name='crossplain pilgrim']Somewhere on this forum there is a very lengthy thread in which Howard's racism was debated in voluminous detail. As has been said so many times, Howard was a man of his times who was raised in rural Texas in the first half of the 20th Century. Had he not been influenced by the racism that totally permeated the world he knew, it would have been something of a miracle. I grew up in the old segregated South and know exactly how pervasive were the bigoted attitudes of that world. One said and believed things simply because you grew up hearing them from everyone you cared about and had never heard anything else.[/quote]

As someone who also grew up in the South, I can say that you're 100% correct on this point.

[quote]I, too, choose to believe Howard was describing one particular group of Africans in tMEofZ, not damning the entire race.[/quote]

Ditto.

[quote]There was a time when Hollywood routinely equated a Southern accent with ignorance and stupidity. Rural white Southerners chewed tobacco, were dirty, needed a shave, and wore ragged clothes to boot.[/quote]

...well...actually...that stereotype isn't entirely untrue. Take some of my neighbors, for instance.

...seriously. Take them.
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Money and muscle, that's what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money won't do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world won't enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it.
--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--