49 replies to this topic

[D&D_Barbarian]

Hello. This is my first post here and I decided to join the forums discussions because I have a question.

So far, I've completed reading Conan the Destroyer, Conan the Gladiator, Conan the Formidable, Conan and the Emerald Lotus, Conan the Victorious, as well as the new dark horse comic series (0?7). Through out what I've read and the 2 movies, I've noticed that conan uses "Crom!" a lot when surprised or irratated in some manner. Other characters curse, or express emotion by shouting "Mitra's Bones!" or "Set's Fang's!" Or "Set's Scales!"

I know that Mitra, Crom, and Set are deities in the conan setting. I was wondering if any of you knew where I could read more about the different gods that exist in Conan's world. I realize that the recent Conan RPG game book might have this information, but as I do not own it yet, I can't be certain of that. I'm looking for more information on each of the deities.

Thanks for all of your help.

[CJH]

Hello and welcome to this forum! These three sites should have all the information that you're looking for.

http://hyboria.xoth.net/gods/gods.htm

http://hyboria.xoth....ods_worship.htm

http://hyboria.xoth....s/good_gods.htm

[BIFlight]

I'll start off by continuing from where this was going previously: wondering about the nature of the faith of the Cimmerians. Currently, the podnering is over what sort of ceremonies, holy orders, etc. Crom and his ilk may have had.

The impression I'd gotten from my reading of Howard's work was simple: there weren't any. Conan's internal monologue in more than one story describes Crom as a grim, fickle character, who gave men "nothing more than the strength and will to live, which was all (Conan) thought should be asked of any god." It's also stated that it was generally regarded as a bad idea to call upon Crom or pray to him, since getting his attention was not looked upon as a wise action.

With this sort of attitude, I don't see that the Cimmerians would have needed or wanted any sort of priesthood. To them, the creator forces were distant personages, with no real interest in their creations after they had been released into the wild, as it were.

Thoughts? Opinions? Death threats?

Edited by deuce, 05 August 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[PainBrush]

Thoughts? Opinions? Death threads?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BLASPHEMER ! Trial by water for you , You've awakened & angered Crom by bothering him with all of us mentioning his name !! hahaha , as somebody else mentioned in another completely unrelated thread Conan more than once 'cusses' & invokes the names of 'other' gods besides Crom , like Mannanan Maclir , Nemain , Macha , Morrigan & Alphonse Mucha....& a couple others I can't recall at the moment...So either Cimmerians are 'polytheistic' or they really could give a *$#@ less about Crom & 'borrow' other peoples gods to invoke . But that don't seem at all plausible because he doesn't 'ask those gods for anything' so why adopt someone elses gods merely to use their names as a curse or expletive when Crom is every bit capable enough by himself to ignore you & your invocations & curses ?!?.....so that makes me assume the Cimmerians 'are' polytheistic with other maybe 'lesser' gods than Crom who actually might listen to foolish mortals & their requests...I imagine they have a series of myth/legend/religion like the norse did , Odin was considered the 'AllFather' -but other gods & giants filled other job positions too & were invoked just as often including his brat kids thor & loki......Howard didn't fill in the blanks of Cimmerian religion tho , I think on purpose . He didn't want there to be the remotest similarities drawn to any modern religions (or ancient ones either now that I think on it ) - to keep Conan free of any 'modern' or 'civilised' moral or ethical obligations like ours &/or consequences for doing whatever the heck he needs to be doing at any given moment . One more thing that convinces me they were 'poly' is that the above sample names are 'also' based on actual Celtic words just like Crom , so it doesn't add up that Conan simply uses foreign gods to curse with , he uses good-old home-grown Cimmerian entities names as expletives !

So Cimmerians aren't 'atheist' but don't actively use any common forms of worship either , but they begrudgingly acknowledge Crom , that there 'is' in fact a 'higher-power ' so they at least 'conceive-of' if not 'contemplate' their creation & existence & it's purpose which isn't just simple dumb luck like an acorn falling off Yggdrasil , like an Ouroboros turd sprouting up or something (or the most retarded & primitive theory of all,.........that there was just a 'big-bang'.....) . All of that implies 'okay they ain't complete cavemen' -or totally primitive primates ooh-ooh-oohing at the night-sky while picking ticks from each others pelts or fur underwear . This gives them a sense (however slight, or different than our own-) of right & wrong , or at least 'favorable & un-favorable' behaviour . But by making Crom an aloof couldn't-care-less entity , then how much 'beneficial' or 'nice' behaviour could we expect from his 'followers' ? - for lack of a better descriptor .
- I.M.H.O.tep -

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 03 January 2006 - 08:19 PM.

[Kortoso]

I wouldn't assume that the Cimmerians had the same outlook as the Vikings, PB. The closest would be the Northeimer, and we know that they had definite differences from Cimmerians.

Here are some sources for shamanism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
http://shamanism.com/
http://www.shamanism.org/
http://www.sacred-te...m/sha/index.htm

And for the Celtic gods:
http://www.whisperin...elticGods1.html
http://www.sacred-te...g/idr/idr19.htm
"Cromduff-Sunday, kept early in August, was the festival of Black Crom."

Edited by Kortoso, 03 January 2006 - 09:11 PM.

[PainBrush]

I didn't mean they would have beliefs exact as the norse , just that I imagine they would have a rich & varied set of myth/stories & pantheon developed in a similar style. I might use norse as a reference for comparison a bit more than Celtic because I'm more familiar with it than the Celtic folklore I don't know quite so much about . Cimmeria feels to me like it would be a 'mix' of norse & celt , but yeah, def. 'more' Celtic than Teutonic .- A lot of the more obscure Saxon (Brythunia?)stuff seems like just such a mix . I agree with that shamanism bit . There's almost identical (or were ) -types of those beliefs in almost all regions of the world at one time or another . TBut especially there's almost identical shamanism parralels between Scandinavian tribes , like Laps Fins (estonian& latvian too) & what would have been called the 'Rus' (vikings) -who spread out across what is today Russia tov the people living in the remoter parts of Siberia /Mongolia/China etc. & almost identical to the religions /folklore shamanism of North American indian tribes from Innuits to Seminoles etc. - more support for those theories about a land-mass that once connected both hemispheres , & lost ancient tribes from pre-history .

[Ironhand]

I didn't mean they would have beliefs exact as the norse , just that I imagine they would have a rich & varied set of myth/stories & pantheon developed in a similar style. I might use norse as a reference for comparison a bit more than Celtic because I'm more familiar with it than the Celtic folklore I don't know quite so much about . Cimmeria feels to me like it would be a 'mix' of norse & celt , but yeah, def. 'more' Celtic than Teutonic .- A lot of the more obscure Saxon (Brythunia?)stuff seems like just such a mix . I agree with that shamanism bit . There's almost identical (or were ) -types of those beliefs in almost all regions of the world at one time or another . TBut especially there's almost identical shamanism parralels between Scandinavian tribes , like Laps Fins (estonian& latvian too)? & what would have been called the 'Rus' (vikings) -who spread out across what is today Russia tov the people living in the remoter parts of Siberia /Mongolia/China etc. & almost identical to the religions /folklore shamanism of North American indian tribes from Innuits to Seminoles etc. - more support for those theories about a land-mass that once connected both hemispheres , & lost ancient tribes from pre-history .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's a little nugget to chew on. There is/was a religion now known as the "Circumpolar Bear Cult"; they worshipped a bear god. Similar artifacts, mythologies, ceremonies, etc. clear around the Arctic Circle. Survives today among the Eskimoes and Inuits, but old mythologies and archeological evidence indicate that it was also followed among Siberian tribes, Finns, Lats, etc. I really don't know much more than that about it, came across the reference when I was studying Amerindians, as the religion followed by the northernmost of the Amerindian tribes before the Europeans invaded. Somehow, it made a shiver run down my spine ... something that old.

I think Crom has some similarities to Odin, a god not lightly invoked. He was not exactly fickle, but he was "moody", and since you never knew what kind of mood he might be in, it was best not to call his attention to you. The exception might be when you were charging into battle, because the one time you did want his attention was when you might be about to die in battle. Note that although Thor was a very popular name among Vikings, nobody named their sons after Odin.

Would this discussion not be better placed in the "Hyborian Age" forum?

Edited by Ironhand, 04 January 2006 - 02:05 AM.

[Strom]

I took Ironhands suggestion and moved the topic.

One thing that has always interested me was the origin of Crom. Was he like Bori, in that he was once a great leader who was elevated to god status because of his exploits, victories and leadership even though he was just human? Or was he like Odin, part of a pantheon of Gods that were always a part of the culture?

If I had to take a guess just based on the information from the Conan stories I have read I would hazard a guess that Crom was once a great warrior king in Cimmeria and was elevated to Godlike status based on his exploits, victories and leadership just like Bori. This would've happened so long ago that Croms origins were lost in the mists of time.

[deuce]

I didn't mean they would have beliefs exact as the norse , just that I imagine they would have a rich & varied set of myth/stories & pantheon developed in a similar style. I might use norse as a reference for comparison a bit more than Celtic because I'm more familiar with it than the Celtic folklore I don't know quite so much about . Cimmeria feels to me like it would be a 'mix' of norse & celt , but yeah, def. 'more' Celtic than Teutonic .- A lot of the more obscure Saxon (Brythunia?)stuff seems like just such a mix . I agree with that shamanism bit . There's almost identical (or were ) -types of those beliefs in almost all regions of the world at one time or another . TBut especially there's almost identical shamanism parralels between Scandinavian tribes , like Laps Fins (estonian& latvian too)? & what would have been called the 'Rus' (vikings) -who spread out across what is today Russia tov the people living in the remoter parts of Siberia /Mongolia/China etc. & almost identical to the religions /folklore shamanism of North American indian tribes from Innuits to Seminoles etc. - more support for those theories about a land-mass that once connected both hemispheres , & lost ancient tribes from pre-history .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's a little nugget to chew on. There is/was a religion now known as the "Circumpolar Bear Cult"; they worshipped a bear god. Similar artifacts, mythologies, ceremonies, etc. clear around the Arctic Circle. Survives today among the Eskimoes and Inuits, but old mythologies and archeological evidence indicate that it was also followed among Siberian tribes, Finns, Lats, etc. I really don't know much more than that about it, came across the reference when I was studying Amerindians, as the religion followed by the northernmost of the Amerindian tribes before the Europeans invaded. Somehow, it made a shiver run down my spine ... something that old.

I think Crom has some similarities to Odin, a god not lightly invoked. He was not exactly fickle, but he was "moody", and since you never knew what kind of mood he might be in, it was best not to call his attention to you. The exception might be when you were charging into battle, because the one time you did want his attention was when you might be about to die in battle. Note that although Thor was a very popular name among Vikings, nobody named their sons after Odin.

Would this discussion not be better placed in the "Hyborian Age" forum?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, Crom WOULD seem to be a god only to called on in "heavy" times. In actual Celtic mythology Crom was a pretty "dark" god. He was the only Irish god to be SPECIFICALLY "put down" by St. Patrick, who, by and large, was pretty sympathetic and lenient towards the native Irish culture (he was a Celtic Briton himself). The possible translations of his full name "Crom Cruach" are these: The Bloody Bent (Crooked) One OR Lord of the Mound. Neither sound too cheery. He was also called Crom Dubh, dubh meaning "dark" or "black" in Gaelic. Odin was no party favor, either. Originally, (before he usurped Tiwaz[Tyr]) Odin was a psychopomp, a god who leads souls to the afterworld. THAT'S why his day is on Mercury's (another psychopomp), not Jupiter's (Thursday). His nicknames like Grim, Bolverk (evil-worker), and Gallow's God don't make him seem too cozy. Heck, don't take my word for it, read REH's " The Grey God Passes" or its sequel "The Cairn on the Headland".

Oh yeah, Ironhand, I agree that this oughtta be in the Hyborian Age forum.

Edited by deuce, 25 November 2007 - 06:22 PM.

[Kortoso]

Since there were other gods in the Cimmerian pantheon, and Conan only said that there was no use to call on Crom, possibly the Cimmerians felt free to call upon their other deities for their individual blessings. I can't believe that they were truly aetheistic. May hard-wired to be manic-depressive...

Perhaps Crom was an Atlantean king?

Nice bit about the Bear Cult, IH. Did you know that the original Indo-European word for bear was "arshak"? There is actually a fantasy story by that name. European words for bear are actually codes for "The Brown One" since the bear was so powerful that His True Name could not be used for fear of calling down his wrath.

[deuce]

Since there were other gods in the Cimmerian pantheon, and Conan only said that there was no use to call on Crom, possibly the Cimmerians felt free to call upon their other deities for their individual blessings. I can't believe that they were truly aetheistic. May hard-wired to be manic-depressive...

Perhaps Crom was an Atlantean king?

Nice bit about the Bear Cult, IH. Did you know that the original Indo-European word for bear was "arshak"? There is actually a fantasy story by that name. European words for bear are actually codes for "The Brown One" since the bear was so powerful that His True Name could not be used for fear of calling down his wrath.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Indo-European word for wolf suffered similar deformation and euphemism. Actually, Latin "ursus" and proto-Celtic "artos"(ie, Cormac mac ART) are, linguistically, quite close to "arshak". Guess the Romans and the Celts weren't quite as scared of the big bad bear as the Slavics and Germanics.

[Kortoso]

Well we "should" be discussing this in the "What does Cimmerian sound like?" thread but what the Hel.

For Hyborian languages, it's interesting that many of the names of the nations such as Nemedia and Aquilonia use the old Latin -ia ending for the name of a nation. What's the chance of this form surviving for thousands of years?

However my advisor points to such artifacts as the -ya ending in Japanese (currently meaning "at the shop" or suchlike, but essentially indicating location). This is how words unspeakably ancient might survive the aeons...

[deuce]

Well we "should" be discussing this in the "What does Cimmerian sound like?" thread but what the Hel.

For Hyborian languages, it's interesting that many of the names of the nations such as Nemedia and Aquilonia use the old Latin -ia ending for the name of a nation. What's the chance of this form surviving for thousands of years?

However my advisor points to such artifacts as the -ya ending in Japanese (currently meaning "at the shop" or suchlike, but essentially indicating location). This is how words unspeakably ancient might survive the aeons...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right. How's this: Ishtar worship originated amongst the Lemurian refugees in Khitai (it's true! Check out Marchers of Valhalla). It died out there, except maybe in some distant echoes in the legends of Ameraterasu and the Chinese "Madonna". It migrated, perhaps through Lemurian slaves dragged along by proto-Stygians (whom I call Khemites), perhaps later, to the lands of the Zhemri. There it took root, going on to become one of the major religions of the Hyborian Age (Ishtar actually showed up REAL late in the game, and straightened out the franchise).

[PainBrush]

How's this: Ishtar worship originated amongst the Lemurian refugees in Khitai (it's true! Check out Marchers of Valhalla).  It died out there, except maybe in some distant echoes in the legends of Ameraterasu and the Chinese "Madonna".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try telling that to that Bunny in a couple months with those stupid eggs !!!

[deuce]

How's this: Ishtar worship originated amongst the Lemurian refugees in Khitai (it's true! Check out Marchers of Valhalla).? It died out there, except maybe in some distant echoes in the legends of Ameraterasu and the Chinese "Madonna".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try telling that to that Bunny in a couple months with those stupid eggs !!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Painbrush! I don't wanna derail this just as I got it on track, but where's Hyrkanian Steel? I've got a MusReps Irish Longsword I wanted to show off!

[PainBrush]

General Discussion folder , hit the refresh or reload or whatever ya call it.....

[Xaltotun]

Since there were other gods in the Cimmerian pantheon, and Conan only said that there was no use to call on Crom, possibly the Cimmerians felt free to call upon their other deities for their individual blessings. I can't believe that they were truly aetheistic. May hard-wired to be manic-depressive...

Perhaps Crom was an Atlantean king?

Nice bit about the Bear Cult, IH. Did you know that the original Indo-European word for bear was "arshak"? There is actually a fantasy story by that name. European words for bear are actually codes for "The Brown One" since the bear was so powerful that His True Name could not be used for fear of calling down his wrath.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People could not use certain words for fear that would call upon the thing mentioned. Other words were substituted, or "noa-names." The old Finns could not say "bear" (karhu), so they would say "honey-paw" (mesik?mmen) instead.

Also, someone brought up the circumpolar bear cult. The "Hairy Ainu" of Japan used to practice bear-worship and bear-sacrifices into recent times.

[Taranaich]

People could not use certain words for fear that would call upon the thing mentioned.  Other words were substituted, or "noa-names."  The old Finns could not say "bear" (karhu), so they would say "honey-paw" (mesik?mmen) instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, like how the people of Watford can't mention rabbits.

...

Right?

[Kortoso]

It appears that the Cimmerian word for "bear" would be something similar to "arto", related to the ancient "arshak' and the like. So Cimmerians were not afraid of uttering the true name of the bear, provided a good spear, or knife were close at hand....

[jackx]

You could argue that Valhalla, while being the ultimate achievement of any warrior in Norse mythology, still wasn't all that pleasant an afterlife when viewed in the light of our modern conceptions, as, to the extent of my knowledge, none of the Einherjer surived Ragnarok (but then, dying in battle was the ultimate achievement).
Personally, I've always viewed the "religious" references as a good attempt at providing something the audience can relate to, but that still retains a certain "alien" element (being based in north and arab/islamic myth)... as probably has been said a thousand times before, CtB isn't a bad movie at all, just a bad "Conan" movie, if you go by what Howard wrote.