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The Real "tao" Of Conan


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#1 Evil Thoth-Amon

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 06:39 PM

I just read the "Tao of Conan" article. I don?t like it at all:

I am a fan of the real Conan since only a pair of years. I saw the damn movie a long time ago... it?s entertaining but i don?t like it very much. And i had read some comics. The fact is, i never liked the character... until i read the original stories by Howard. And i realise that this character is really GREAT, the human being at his perfection.

Conan is not a boy scout like Sir Lancelot because he is a SURVIVOR but he is not a complete monster, either. He have ethics. He is a classic "die-hard" hero like Philipe Marlow or the Captain Blood.I love that tales because it reminds me the old Hollywood adventure movies.

I don?t understand why the writer of this article said that the people think on a childish he-man when they thinks on Conan. Actually, most of the people think on a raper, on an ugly viking, on a savage bandit, on an ogre with a huge sword. The character from the first movie. I start to appreciate this film (by his own merits) at the same age i start to hate it (by his lack of fidelity).

Conan are always fighting in dangerous situations... he lives in a wild world. Probably, at one ocasion, he had no chance, and he must kill a women or being sadistic in order to obtain information... but we NEVER see him do that kind of things in the original tales. Because he is a hero and we always see him saving good people from the villains. Even BATMAN need to piss but we never see Bruce Wayne in the bathroom. It?s the same. The barbarian is not Elric. The barbarian is not a George RR Martin character (thanks Crom!!). The barbarian is not like a Goblin or a Dark Elf. He is a hero who destroy evil warlocks, who have respect with women, who kill dangerous creatures, who save entire cities.

I started to read the Del Rey books with suspicion. Because i feared that the main character would hurt innocents. But when i read a couple of stories i realized that was no need to worry: the cimmerian always choose the right way. Maybe i sound a little christian but i?m atheist!

The main problem, in my opinion is: the REH scholars are still fighting against DeCamp vision. I don?t know why: that battle was finished a long time ago. No one remember who was this guy.

And DeCamp was not THAT bad. Okay, he was a liar and he manipulate the original texts... but he wrote some of the best "pastiche stories". And, in my opinion, he get the character right or, at least, better than other authors. When i read Roy Thomas adaptations of DeCamp?s stuff... i see Conan the Cimmerian. But when i see a man slapping a kid in "Dark Horse" comics... i see Clonan the Barbarian.

In Howard stories is very difficult to see a woman die. No one by our hero?s hand. And when it happens is: A - an epic, terrible, tragic event or B - a punishment.

Normally, Conan never lies. But he have no problem in lieing in order to protect friends.

Actually, a big battle was lost: the Millius vision of the character. A monstruos brute with no intelligence that thinks "the best in life is to kill". A guy with no morale at all, an assasin. The same kind of guy that appears in the Donelly/Oppenheimer script and the public will see in the upcoming Lionsgate s&s movie (Marcus Nispel, 2011).

Yes, i believe in good and evil. i?m ingenuous?

Sorry my english very much: i?m still battling with the language.

Edited by Evil Thoth-Amon, 15 September 2009 - 07:42 PM.

The natural state of mankind is slavery. The only question is who commands and who obeys...

#2 ?sir

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 07:07 PM

I think you attribute to Conan too much considering of morally right or wrong. Conan follows his instincts. To understand the kind of instincts Conan has I suggest you watch a nature show and observe how animals interact. In their behaviour is reflected most of Conan. The things you can't see there are often minor things that are easy to explain as Conan having taken up as a result of the exposure to civilisation.

#3 Evil Thoth-Amon

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 07:41 PM

I think you attribute to Conan too much considering of morally right or wrong. Conan follows his instincts. To understand the kind of instincts Conan has I suggest you watch a nature show and observe how animals interact. In their behaviour is reflected most of Conan. The things you can't see there are often minor things that are easy to explain as Conan having taken up as a result of the exposure to civilisation.


You have a very valid point here, but i?m not trying to analyze the character as a "real person". I?m trying to analyze him as a "fictional model".
My point is is: what i extract from the stories is that, in Howard?s opinion, that kind of "natural behavior" is closer to the REAL justice than any law..

Exactly like happens in some of my all-time favorite movie clasics:

I love that tales because it reminds me the old Hollywood adventure movies.


;)
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#4 Evil Thoth-Amon

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 08:40 PM

Thank you very much, Gunderman!
The natural state of mankind is slavery. The only question is who commands and who obeys...

#5 Axerules

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 02:43 AM

Thank you very much, Gunderman!

For what? :blink:

I only see one starting post and three replies (before my own) in this thread. Did someone delete a post?
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#6 Evil Thoth-Amon

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 06:56 AM

LOL. Gunderman said that was agree with me... i don?t know why his post is not there.
The natural state of mankind is slavery. The only question is who commands and who obeys...

#7 PainBrush

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 11:34 PM

I agree with some of your ideas there ThothAmon , but you said yourself you've only been a fan for REH/Conan for a couple years . There's a lot of us here who have been fans for decades , we'll see one day hopefully if any of your ideas & opinions are a little different after a decade or two ! - Things like DeCamp wasn't so bad , & he got the character 'right' in his pastiche - there's a lot of us who knew no better for years , that he purposely kept a lot of Howards writing out of print , vetoed a lot of things ( him being half of the 'Conan Properties' at that time ) & a lot of us feel his watered down ( & Lin Carter & Nyborg's ) version of Conan was far off-base . Kind of like the difference between the 'Comics Code Authority' Conan comics for kids & the Conan in the novels - a big difference .

I also wonder , you mentioned your English - don't worry Thoth , it's good enough that we understand pretty much everything you say , but I wonder if 'maybe' a little of the heart & soul of REH's Conan might come across a little different in international translations ? I have seen that a lot over the years . 1 Quick Example , "Catcher in the Rye" - translated into Polish or Ukranian is "Lurker in the Weeds" , or "Loafer in the Grain" , sounds a 'little-bit' different aye ? :lol:
& as far as Conan being a 'hero' , you can't forget what even his own creator said about him , " Conan's the DAMNEDEST BASTARD there EVER WAS ! " :angry: :lol: ( my favorite line in "The Whole Wide World " ) It's been a long while since I read that Tao of Conan , but I thought it was good & pretty well written .

Edited by PainBrush, 17 September 2009 - 11:40 PM.

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So THIS is civilization ??!??!......

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#8 SLAYERx78

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 07:46 PM

& as far as Conan being a 'hero' , you can't forget what even his own creator said about him , " Conan's the DAMNEDEST BASTARD there EVER WAS ! " ( my favorite line in "The Whole Wide World " )

lol i agree that was one of the greatest descriptions ever. iv been a conan fan for about 15 years or so now,starting with the movie,then the tor/ace paperbacks,( on a side note , my opinions on lin carter and LSDC " modifying " Howards original stories notwithstanding, those little paperbacks REALLY opened my mind about the charecter, and the whole REH universe) then while working at a comic shop i was able to collect all of the comics and mags. now the was i see conan in my head is very diffrent than after the first time i saw the movies, and diffrent still after reading the paperbacks, then i was able to find some unedited Howard versions, and my opinion changed yet again. to me, Conan isnt a bad guy or a good guy, hes a barbarian,a wanderer, adventurer,a partyer,a lover, a slayer:) an amalgam of many aspects of Howards view of life,people, morals. I love conan( not in homo erotic sort of way lol) by far my favorite fictional charecter , Howard is far and away my favorite writer,and im VERY glad to have found this site, a place where others share my love, even if not my exact views.
"Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars--Nemedia, Ophir, Brythunia, Hyperborea, Zamora with its dark-haired women and towers of spider-haunted mystery, Zingaria with its chivalry, Koth that bordered on the pastoral lands of Shem, Stygia with its shadow-guarded tombs, Hyrkania whose riders wore steel and silk and gold. But the proudest kingdom in the world was Aquilonia, reigning supreme in the dreaming west. Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a SLAYER, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet."

....."let me live deep while I live , know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate , the hot embrace of white arms , the mad exultation of battle when the blue-blades flame and crimson - and I am content. Let teachers priests and philosphers brood on questions of reality and illusion . I know this much ; if life is an illusion , then I am no less an illusion , and being so that illusion is real to ME .I live , I burn with life , I love , I SLAY , and I am content . "

#9 ?sir

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 08:51 AM

Conan isnt a bad guy or a good guy..


Exactly. Good and evil is for one thing subjective and for another thing never absolute in my opinion. There's a reason why someone came up with this:

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#10 Evil Thoth-Amon

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Posted 02 October 2009 - 09:41 AM

Good and evil is for one thing subjective and for another thing never absolute in my opinion.


This is very easy to say but very hard to defend. Charles Manson was not evil? Hitler was not evil?

C´mon! Conan is a fictional character that make HEROIC deeds!

Edited by Evil Thoth-Amon, 02 October 2009 - 10:25 AM.

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#11 ?sir

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 08:47 AM

Good and evil is for one thing subjective and for another thing never absolute in my opinion.


This is very easy to say but very hard to defend. Charles Manson was not evil? Hitler was not evil?

C?mon! Conan is a fictional character that make HEROIC deeds!


You missed the point I was bringing up - that good and evil are not absolute. There is no pure good, and pure evil. You can always find a blend of both in everything. Whether that is because of Yin and Yang or subjectiveness I'll not speculate over now, but the black and white good and evil is only possible in my opinion in fiction. Sure, Conan is a fictious character but what I like the most about Howard's stories is that they're realistic in every sense, including this.

#12 Kortoso

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 04:31 PM

Charles Manson was not evil? Hitler was not evil?


Never met the men.
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#13 SLAYERx78

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 06:08 PM


Good and evil is for one thing subjective and for another thing never absolute in my opinion.


This is very easy to say but very hard to defend. Charles Manson was not evil? Hitler was not evil?

C?mon! Conan is a fictional character that make HEROIC deeds!


You missed the point I was bringing up - that good and evil are not absolute. There is no pure good, and pure evil. You can always find a blend of both in everything. Whether that is because of Yin and Yang or subjectiveness I'll not speculate over now, but the black and white good and evil is only possible in my opinion in fiction. Sure, Conan is a fictious character but what I like the most about Howard's stories is that they're realistic in every sense, including this.


i absolutely agree, good and evil, like reality are very subjective. was hitler evil? yes...does that mean he was PURE evil? no, he, like every one had good aspects, very few maybe, but even Conan had aspects of evil, i mean he was a thief, a reaver and a slayer after all, not really the type of resume you want unless your somewhat of a heel at times. i do feel that Conan is fundimently a decent guy, a hard arse, but not a total " villin" but to assume he is a "good guy/hero" kind of misses the point imo. is the lion evil because it kills a baby wildabeast? most of my family acts like that while watching discover channel,but like i try to explain,its not evil,its nature.
"Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars--Nemedia, Ophir, Brythunia, Hyperborea, Zamora with its dark-haired women and towers of spider-haunted mystery, Zingaria with its chivalry, Koth that bordered on the pastoral lands of Shem, Stygia with its shadow-guarded tombs, Hyrkania whose riders wore steel and silk and gold. But the proudest kingdom in the world was Aquilonia, reigning supreme in the dreaming west. Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a SLAYER, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet."

....."let me live deep while I live , know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate , the hot embrace of white arms , the mad exultation of battle when the blue-blades flame and crimson - and I am content. Let teachers priests and philosphers brood on questions of reality and illusion . I know this much ; if life is an illusion , then I am no less an illusion , and being so that illusion is real to ME .I live , I burn with life , I love , I SLAY , and I am content . "

#14 deuce

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 08:47 PM

Conan isnt a bad guy or a good guy..


Exactly. Good and evil is for one thing subjective and for another thing never absolute in my opinion. There's a reason why someone came up with this:

Posted Image



Hey AEsir! You do realize that you're treading very close to a reductio ad absurdum argument here? Unless I misread his initial and later posts, ET-A never tried to say that Conan was absolutely good, which seems to be what you're implying with your helpful yin/yang symbol (once again, thank you for the crash-course in Eastern philosophy). Posted Image

Would a person who was not predominantly "good/whatever-you-want-to-call-it" worry about people (those not of his tribe/pack) being sold into slavery, dying of starvation or suffering oppression? Just wondering.

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#15 Evil Thoth-Amon

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 09:10 AM

nless I misread his initial and later posts, ET-A never tried to say that Conan was absolutely good, which seems to be what you're implying with your helpful yin/yang symbol


That´s right. I NEVER speak about absolutes. But if you take the character of Conan he is not so "ambiguous" at all: he is (obviously) more in the side of good than in other place.

Edited by Evil Thoth-Amon, 04 October 2009 - 09:10 AM.

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#16 ?sir

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 09:32 AM

nless I misread his initial and later posts, ET-A never tried to say that Conan was absolutely good, which seems to be what you're implying with your helpful yin/yang symbol


That´s right. I NEVER speak about absolutes. But if you take the character of Conan he is not so "ambiguous" at all: he is (obviously) more in the side of good than in other place.


Well then I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about Conan being a good guy, and a hero in a black and white kind of way just like you've argued before in another thread about heroism, pointing out that Conan is a fictious character as one of the arguments. I will then interpret this as you now acknowledging that Conan is not an altogether good guy.

once again, thank you for the crash-course in Eastern philosophy..


You're welcome. I hope you feel thoroughly enlightened.

Edited by ?sir, 04 October 2009 - 09:33 AM.


#17 The Dane

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:08 PM

I just read the "Tao of Conan" article. I don?t like it at all:


I just read the essay and I must say I quite like it. I think he has some interesting thoughts about Conan's way of thinking and behaving.

#18 Axerules

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 10:55 AM

Welcome to the boards! :)
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#19 The Dane

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 04:43 PM

Welcome to the boards! :)


Thank you :)

#20 Fernando

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 06:15 PM

Dale Rippke wrote a great article ideed! :) After seeing the greatest proof about Conan killing women under some circunstances (i.e.: Natala's comment to Thalis in "Xuthal of the Dusk"), I wonder... how did Natala know it? Did she see Conan killing an woman between Shem and the Southern Desert?