[Taranaich]

crossplain pilgrim, on 05 September 2010 - 10:08 PM, said:

The more troubling question is not whether great actors can portray other races and nationalities (they can), but when it is appropriate? I'm a tad traditionalist. I take a dim view of film makers messing with historical characters or fictional characters who are so established in the culture that they seem historical. Conan, as described by Howard, is an ancestral Celt. For me, Conan can't be portrayed as anything else and still be Conan. Others may legitimately disagree. However, if you have an actor who is of a decidedly different ethnicity, but can convincingly portray a Celt, it's okay with me. Brando as Zapata? It worked.

That's the big thing for me. As long as he looks and acts the part of Conan - as in, looks like a Gael - it's fine. It just gets silly if you cast someone who is quite clearly not a Gael, and have to use extensive makeup to cover it. Momoa does fine in that regard.

Quote

But you can't have Will Smith portraying Hamlet in 9th Century Denmark, no more than I would want to see a white guy portraying Shaka Zulu.

... Damn, I really want to see Will Smith's Hamlet.

Nooowww, this is the story all about how
My life got flipped-turned upside down
And I'd like to take a minute
Just sit 'n hark,
I'll tell you how I became the Prince of a land called Denmark!

[drush9999]

crossplain pilgrim, on 05 September 2010 - 11:08 PM, said:

But you can't have Will Smith portraying Hamlet in 9th Century Denmark, no more than I would want to see a white guy portraying Shaka Zulu.

The reverse of this has been true for many years with Othello being played by white actors, I think it makes more sense to have actors in "historical" settings to have the right looks these days.

[crossplain pilgrim]

Taranaich, on 06 September 2010 - 05:03 AM, said:

... Damn, I really want to see Will Smith's Hamlet.

Nooowww, this is the story all about how
My life got flipped-turned upside down
And I'd like to take a minute
Just sit 'n hark,
I'll tell you how I became the Prince of a land called Denmark!

A little Pictish wit there, Sword Brother? But you know, I am kind of surprised no one has thought of setting Hamlet in ancient Kush, Zimbawe, or maybe the Songhai Empire. Seems like it has been set everywhere else.

Getting back to Momoa, I remember seeing him one or twice on the SyFy Channel, but he did not make a big impression. Just another hunk tossed in to bump up the ratings with teenage girls was my thought at the time. I still think if it were not for the "Twilight" effect, the producers of "Conan" would have gone with someone else. One of these week-ends, I'll have to rent "Stargate" and give JM some serious thought.

This post has been edited by crossplain pilgrim: 06 September 2010 - 10:12 PM

[Ironhand]

crossplain pilgrim, on 06 September 2010 - 04:11 PM, said:

Getting back to Momoa, I remember seeing him one or twice on the SyFy Channel, but he did not make a big impression. Just another hunk tossed in to bump up the ratings with teenage girls was my thought at the time. I still think if it were not for the "Twilight" effect, the producers of "Conan" would have gone with someone else. One of these week-ends, I'll have to rent "Stargate" and give JM some serious thought.

There's one particular episode, where some old friends of Ronin (JM) betray him. JM shows well in this episode. Another good ep is the one where Ronin makes his first appearance.

This post has been edited by Ironhand: 07 September 2010 - 05:02 AM

[Tyrsig]

Everyone here has made some very good points, but if I may I would like to add something concerning the Ethniticity of the Actor representing Conan. Yes REH did base Conan and the Cimmerians on Hybeno Kelts ( Actually spelled with a K not a C)but what most people do not understand is that the Kelts prior to the Migration period, the era that follows the age of Conan, is that they did not look like modern day Scots and Irish. The would have more resembled Spaniards, it is where the term BZlack Irish comes from for one. The red and blonde hair that is associated with modern Kelts is actually a by product of their breeding with Anglos, norse and Norman blood lines from 600 c.e. till the present. There was a genetic project years ago that looked at the DNA groups of people from all over the world, it was Called the EVE project. The people of the British Isles and France had two distinct Dna groups, one was identified as native indigenous peoples ie the Kelts, the other was a Northern European DNA group. This shouldn't surprise anyone considering The Norse settled all over England Ireland and France. I mean the Irish city of Dublin alone was founded by the Norse ie the vikings the name alone is an old Norse word meaning dark water. Also Julius Cesear when writing of his campaign in the British Isles described the people as taller than romans ( which isn't surprising the romans were short) Dark haired, or as he said hair the color of mud after a hard rain, and golden skin. So just keep this all in mind when you judge what an accurate portrayal of a Cimmerian would be. I personally think based on actual historical knowledge and not the limited knowledge REH had of the matter to do limited research at the time on the subject, has hit the mark.

[Garzo]

Good point Tyrsig and well said. That's was also the point I was trying to make with an earlier post. At the same time, I find it strange to try and anchor Howard's Hyborean Age in historical fact when it's actually a brilliant fantasy world set more then 10,000 years ago, which would make a direct connection between Conan's Cimmerians and modern-day Celts, Gaels or Scots, well, silly in a way, especially in view of the fact that Howard's fantasy history also includes a Cataclysm that reshaped the continent and no doubt wiped out huge populations. Not to mention the fact that in Howard's history, Cimmerians are also descendants of Atlantis. In view of these clear fantasy elements, trying to create a link between Howard's Atlantean Cimmerians and modern-day Celts is like arguing that Native Americans are descendants of extraterrestrial humanoids because some sci-fi/fantasy author wrote a book saying just that.

[amsterdamaged]

Garzo, on 08 September 2010 - 05:30 AM, said:

Good point Tyrsig and well said. That's was also the point I was trying to make with an earlier post. At the same time, I find it strange to try and anchor Howard's Hyborean Age in historical fact when it's actually a brilliant fantasy world set more then 10,000 years ago, which would make a direct connection between Conan's Cimmerians and modern-day Celts, Gaels or Scots, well, silly in a way, especially in view of the fact that Howard's fantasy history also includes a Cataclysm that reshaped the continent and no doubt wiped out huge populations. Not to mention the fact that in Howard's history, Cimmerians are also descendants of Atlantis. In view of these clear fantasy elements, trying to create a link between Howard's Atlantean Cimmerians and modern-day Celts is like arguing that Native Americans are descendants of extraterrestrial humanoids because some sci-fi/fantasy author wrote a book saying just that.

You two miss the point entirely. It was REH himself who linked Atlanteans and Cimmerians to modern day Celts. Whether he was historically accurate or not is beside the point. He gave them racial characteristics that are as clear as day. If some author created a fantasy world in which native Americans were descended from extraterrestrials, I would expect the film adaptation to relect the author's wishes.

[Taranaich]

The Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans.

The origins of other races of the modern world may be similarly traced; in almost every case, far older than they realize, their history stretches back into the mists of the forgotten Hyborian age...

- Robert E. Howard, "The Hyborian Age"

[krommtaar]

Tyrsig, on 08 September 2010 - 05:54 AM, said:

There was a genetic project years ago that looked at the DNA groups of people from all over the world, it was Called the EVE project. The people of the British Isles and France had two distinct Dna groups, one was identified as native indigenous peoples ie the Kelts, the other was a Northern European DNA group. This shouldn't surprise anyone considering The Norse settled all over England Ireland and France.

Celts were not indigenous, they migrated there at some point, encountering other so called "natives" , only they did it long before the norse and anglo-saxons tribes came along. I get your point.
But I'm surprised with the result of the project...there should be far more than only TWO distinct groups:
when the ancestors of the celts came to what is now France and the British Isles, there were ALREADY some autochtones (well these autochtones also came from somewhere, only we're not sure from where) .
These "autochtones" were later completely absorbed by the celtic culture and nothing remained besides a few megaliths.
So there should be THREE groups at least. ( 4 if counting the basques in western france for example)

DNA analysis is the way to go, only some studies are more complete than others. In 50-100 years from now, people will laugh at the theories from our epoch, in the same manner we laughed at the XIXth century theories, that's for sure.

I don't understand what's going on on this thread anyways, what counts is IF the actor CORRESPONDS to the description given by a certain author, and often to compel to certain crucial details, it is necessary to have the actor bearing a certain ancestry, but it's not an absolute law, it depends of the case.

Many are frustrated because of Schwarzenegger for example, saying that it's impossible for an austrian to look like a celt. WRONG, it depends of which austrian, don't forget, celts settled in Austria for a certain time, so they don't all look " 100 % germanic" : if you look around hard enough, you'll find a true austrian that could resemble a welsh or an irishman.

[Kortoso]

Very good points, all, but let's keep this focused on Jason Momoa, or take the conversation elsewhere.

[Willy_Bravo]

My family and I met Jason Momoa this weekend at Dragoncon in Atlanta. I didn't get a chance to question him about Conan. I got the impression he couldn't really speak about it too much. He did say he was very excited about the film though. He was very gracious and seemed really genuine. My wife really got a kick out him and she is not easily impressed. She definitely wants to see the movie now. He's not massive but he is tall and imposing. I'm really looking forward to his Conan performance now!

[sargasso]

Hello, again! I gotta say, that for all my preconceived "whah-whahing" about Jason's looks and ethnicity, he's pulling off my mind's-eye image of Conan extremely well. Large, but not overly so, sun darkened, his face looks right, he's handsome in a rugged way, but I wouldn't call him pretty (my wife thinks he's hot, so that's a good sign since Conan wasn't shunned by the Hyborean ladies). Also (and you can skewer me on a pig-pole for this), no matter how Howard described him, I've never pictured Conan with a square-cut mane simply because I freaking hate the square-cut look. I like that he doesn't have it.

Deleted my sig because Jason has proved to me that someone other than Gerard Butler can pull off the look.

This post has been edited by sargasso: Yesterday, 11:09 PM

[Tyrsig]

krommtaar, on 08 September 2010 - 07:45 AM, said:

Tyrsig, on 08 September 2010 - 05:54 AM, said:

There was a genetic project years ago that looked at the DNA groups of people from all over the world, it was Called the EVE project. The people of the British Isles and France had two distinct Dna groups, one was identified as native indigenous peoples ie the Kelts, the other was a Northern European DNA group. This shouldn't surprise anyone considering The Norse settled all over England Ireland and France.

Celts were not indigenous, they migrated there at some point, encountering other so called "natives" , only they did it long before the norse and anglo-saxons tribes came along. I get your point.
But I'm surprised with the result of the project...there should be far more than only TWO distinct groups:
when the ancestors of the celts came to what is now France and the British Isles, there were ALREADY some autochtones (well these autochtones also came from somewhere, only we're not sure from where) .
These "autochtones" were later completely absorbed by the celtic culture and nothing remained besides a few megaliths.
So there should be THREE groups at least. ( 4 if counting the basques in western france for example)

DNA analysis is the way to go, only some studies are more complete than others. In 50-100 years from now, people will laugh at the theories from our epoch, in the same manner we laughed at the XIXth century theories, that's for sure.

I don't understand what's going on on this thread anyways, what counts is IF the actor CORRESPONDS to the description given by a certain author, and often to compel to certain crucial details, it is necessary to have the actor bearing a certain ancestry, but it's not an absolute law, it depends of the case.

Many are frustrated because of Schwarzenegger for example, saying that it's impossible for an austrian to look like a celt. WRONG, it depends of which austrian, don't forget, celts settled in Austria for a certain time, so they don't all look " 100 % germanic" : if you look around hard enough, you'll find a true austrian that could resemble a welsh or an irishman.

I was surprised as well at the results, one theory that has been tossed about is that The invading Kelts did not interbreed with the native peoples but rather wiped them out, I doubt this. A more likely reasons could be that The Invading Kelts would have been of the Same DNA group as the original people. Again who knows. People also seem to forget that the Kelts as a people stretch From the British Isles to Germany to Turkey. And I have to agree with you that in 100 years people will look back and laugh at our research finds, but that is the nature of Science.

[Kortoso]

Tyrsig, you are going off-topic. This is a friendly moderator reminder.

[sargasso]

Also, can't wait for the first trailer because I want to hear how Jason sounds, which is another big issue for me. Is he trying an accent? At this point, I don't really care about the accent, even though a rumbling brogue would've been bad ass. From the videos, I think he sounds decent, but is he doing to alter his voice in any way for the character? I kind of hope not, but if he does, I just pray it doesn't sound artificial as that would make it hard to take the character seriously, just listen to the on-again-off-again accents in movies such as Star Wars 1-3 and Storm in the X-Men movies. It depletes the characters somewhat. Not that those examples had much character, I'm just sayin'.