16 replies to this topic

[elegos7]

Nowadays the biographers of Conan (Dale Rippke, Simon Sanahujas, Dark Horse Comics) tend to place "The Frost-Giant's Daughter" as his first story chronologically (when he was around 16), based on a passage from REH?s letter to Schuyler Miller in 1936.

In the classical Clark/Miller/deCamp timeline this story was placed just before Queen of the Black Coast.

However, I recently discovered that in "The Frost King's Daughter", REH?s rewrite of his "The Frost-Giant's Daughter", where he exchanged Conan with Amra of Akbitana, he added the following:

?Far have I wandered, from Zingara to the Sea of Vilayet, in Stygia and Kush, and the country of the Hyrkanians; but a woman like you I have never seen.?
(from page 105 in People of the Dark (2007), volume two of the Weird Works of REH)

So it seems this story takes place even later in Conan?s life, after he has been to Stygia and Kush with Belit. REH mentioned in that letter Conan had returned a couple of times to Cimmeria, perhaps this story takes place during one of those returns.

[Kortoso]

For reference, this may have been discussed to some degree in this thread previously:
http://www.conan.com...?showtopic=3614

[deuce]

Nowadays the biographers of Conan (Dale Rippke, Simon Sanahujas, Dark Horse Comics) tend to place "The Frost-Giant's Daughter" as his first story chronologically (when he was around 16), based on a passage from REH's letter to Schuyler Miller in 1936.

In the classical Clark/Miller/deCamp timeline this story was placed just before Queen of the Black Coast.

However, I recently discovered that in "The Frost King's Daughter", REH's rewrite of his "The Frost-Giant's Daughter", where he exchanged Conan with Amra of Akbitana, he added the following:

"Far have I wandered, from Zingara to the Sea of Vilayet, in Stygia and Kush, and the country of the Hyrkanians; but a woman like you I have never seen."
(from page 105 in People of the Dark (2007), volume two of the Weird Works of REH)

So it seems this story takes place even later in Conan's life, after he has been to Stygia and Kush with Belit. REH mentioned in that letter Conan had returned a couple of times to Cimmeria, perhaps this story takes place during one of those returns.

Hey Elegos! Good to see you back on the forum. The same thought occurred to me when I first read "FKD" in Echoes of Valor not quite two years ago. I alluded to my doubts in the second paragraph of this TC blog entry:

http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=3938

As you can see, I accepted an "early" placement in the service of my argument, but I'm still not sure about it by any means. Al Harron asked me about it at the time. I suppose one could say that REH simply added a little extra to differentiate Amra from Conan. OTOH, Conan sporting a full hauberk of chain would be much easier to explain if the story took place, say, not long before QotBC (or even BtBR).

"FKD" is just a strange little yarn. REH could've easily have thrown in made-up names for everything. Instead, it seems to take place in the Hyborian Age. However, what are the odds of another warrior having the same thing happen to him? Atali's a slow learner, in that case. Perhaps, since he wasn't taking pay for it, REH just changed the name of the protagonist. If so, why did he add that extra text? It's just possible that REH was working from a previous draft of FGD. If that's the case, then the "early" placement is probably wrong.

A puzzling situation.

[jak]

Can't add much as to timeline placement, just that Frost-Giant's Daughter is one of my top 5 Conan stories. The imagery and determination of Conan running after her stays with me ... particularly when I'm gutting out a tough jog.

Cover is also one of my favorite (I see Dark Horse comics "borrowed" it). Men tough enough to combat in the snow in their furries. That is tough.


(can't use twitpic image or Amazon ... hmmm, wonder why)


cover example

[guilalah]

I think FGD came before tBC or QotBS; not sure where it stand in relation to GitB, TotE or RitH.

I seem to recall somewhere, maybe a letter, Howard said Conan adventured North before he adventured south. FGD might be the youngest Conan, but I'm not sure of this. Conan seems more mature and decisive in FGD than he does in TGitB or TTotE, but that might be because, in the latter stories, he's inexperienced with civilized ways.

[Axerules]

I think FGD came before tBC or QotBS; not sure where it stand in relation to GitB, TotE or RitH.

I seem to recall somewhere, maybe a letter, Howard said Conan adventured North before he adventured south. FGD might be the youngest Conan, but I'm not sure of this. Conan seems more mature and decisive in FGD than he does in TGitB or TTotE, but that might be because, in the latter stories, he's inexperienced with civilized ways.

Indeed, it was in a letter to P. Schuyler Miller. It was included in the third Del Rey Conan volume, The Conquering Sword of Conan and you can also read it online here: http://www.barbarian.../millerlet.html

[johnnypt]

Nowadays the biographers of Conan (Dale Rippke, Simon Sanahujas, Dark Horse Comics) tend to place "The Frost-Giant's Daughter" as his first story chronologically (when he was around 16), based on a passage from REH's letter to Schuyler Miller in 1936.

In the classical Clark/Miller/deCamp timeline this story was placed just before Queen of the Black Coast.

However, I recently discovered that in "The Frost King's Daughter", REH's rewrite of his "The Frost-Giant's Daughter", where he exchanged Conan with Amra of Akbitana, he added the following:

"Far have I wandered, from Zingara to the Sea of Vilayet, in Stygia and Kush, and the country of the Hyrkanians; but a woman like you I have never seen."
(from page 105 in People of the Dark (2007), volume two of the Weird Works of REH)

So it seems this story takes place even later in Conan's life, after he has been to Stygia and Kush with Belit. REH mentioned in that letter Conan had returned a couple of times to Cimmeria, perhaps this story takes place during one of those returns.

Hey Elegos! Good to see you back on the forum. The same thought occurred to me when I first read "FKD" in Echoes of Valor not quite two years ago. I alluded to my doubts in the second paragraph of this TC blog entry:

http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=3938

As you can see, I accepted an "early" placement in the service of my argument, but I'm still not sure about it by any means. Al Harron asked me about it at the time. I suppose one could say that REH simply added a little extra to differentiate Amra from Conan. OTOH, Conan sporting a full hauberk of chain would be much easier to explain if the story took place, say, not long before QotBC (or even BtBR).

"FKD" is just a strange little yarn. REH could've easily have thrown in made-up names for everything. Instead, it seems to take place in the Hyborian Age. However, what are the odds of another warrior having the same thing happen to him? Atali's a slow learner, in that case. Perhaps, since he wasn't taking pay for it, REH just changed the name of the protagonist. If so, why did he add that extra text? It's just possible that REH was working from a previous draft of FGD. If that's the case, then the "early" placement is probably wrong.

A puzzling situation.

I just pulled it out and read it myself. Puzzling is right. It's hard to know exactly what to do with it. Since he sent it to Fantasy Fan in November 1933, he must have rewritten it after several Conan stories had been published in WT, I guess changing the name so as not to tick Farnsworth off. Should it be treated as a draft like Red Nails with the burning of Valedad? If so, it'd have to actually take place after QOTBC with references to his travels in Kush and probably after ISITM with the Vilayet references. If it's more of a "By This Axe I Rule-Phoenix on the Sword" situation, then they're two different stories and you forget about the added paragraph. It's also analagous to the Steve Costigan-Dennis Dorgan stories. I guess the easiest thing to do is say FGD is a Conan story and FKD is something different since it was rewritten.

[guilalah]

I reread the letter to Miller last night. FGD might be placed with Conan's first leaving Cimmeria and joining a group of Aesir warriors. Agsinst this is that, in FGD, Conan refers to his past wanderings. Howard aludes to Conan returning to Cimmeria. Since Conan gre up in NW Cimmerian, his return might well have put him back in contact with the Aesir (who's rolicking way Conan confesses (in PotS) prefering to those of the Cimmerians).

[Patrice Louinet]

The Amra version of the story was not written until at the very least September 1932, several months after REH completed "Frost Giant". Up to that point there was no "Kush" in the Conan stories (it was still "Cush"), and, more importantly, there was no "Vilayet"; that sea was always referred to as the "Inland Sea".
Stanley Lane-Poole's TURKEY, which was the major source for "The Road of the Eagles", a cossack story written abt september 1932, was also a source for some Conan stories, most notably "Iron Shadows in the Moon" (October 1932), which borrows the names Amurath, Akif, Irem and Yildiz from that book, as well as marks the first appearance of the name "Vilayet" in the Conan stories, once again taken from Lane-Poole.
In other words, the line in "Frost King's Daughter" was added specifically for the Amra version and was not (could not) be present when Howard completed "Frost Giant" in March 1932. It has nothing to do with Conan's "biography."

Patrice

Edited by Patrice Louinet, 08 February 2010 - 08:23 PM.

[deuce]

The Amra version of the story was not written until at the very least September 1932, several months after REH completed "Frost Giant". Up to that point there was no "Kush" in the Conan stories (it was still "Cush"), and, more importantly, there was no "Vilayet"; that sea was always referred to as the "Inland Sea".
Stanley Lane-Poole's TURKEY, which was the major source for "The Road of the Eagles", a cossack story written abt september 1932, was also a source for some Conan stories, most notably "Iron Shadows in the Moon" (October 1932), which borrows the names Amurath, Akif, Irem and Yildiz from Lane-Poole's book, as well as marks the first appearance of the name "Vilayet" in the Conan stories, once again taken from Lane-Poole.
In other words, the line in "Frost King's Daughter" was added specifically for the Amra version and was not (could not) be present when Howard completed "Frost Giant" in March 1932. It has nothing to do with Conan's "biography."

Patrice

As always, many thanks for the enlightening information, Patrice.

[indestructibleman]

i'm curious. is the Amra version in print anywhere?

eta: Deuce mentinoed reading it in Echoes of Valor, that's the one edited by KEW right? so the Frost King's Daughter that's in that essentially the same as Gods of the North that was published in 1932?

Edited by indestructibleman, 08 February 2010 - 08:05 PM.

[deuce]

i'm curious. is the Amra version in print anywhere?

Like I mentioned above, it's easily and cheaply available in the KEW-edited "Echoes of Valor" series of anthologies. Just go to Howard Works to find all the printings, for that matter.

[indestructibleman]

thanks, that's what i get for skimming the thread rather than reading it. also for not refreshing the thread before editing a post.

[elegos7]

Thanks Patrice, for the info.

You say the word "Vilayet" was first used in "Iron Shadows in the Moon" in Oct 1932. Then how it is possible it appears in the published version of "Hyborian Age" as well? This was apparently written in the spring of 1932, but was only published by Lany Corporation in 1938. Does it mean some editor inserted the name "Vilayet" into the published version of "Hyborian Age", or some of REH's drafts were written later then the fall of 1932? (We know draft "d", the published version by Lany, is lost.)

Edited by elegos7, 11 February 2010 - 10:26 PM.

[Patrice Louinet]

Thanks Patrice, for the info.

You say the word "Vilayet" was first used in "Iron Shadows in the Moon" in Oct 1932. Then how it is possible it appears in the published version of "Hyborian Age" as well? This was apparently written in the spring of 1932, but was only published by Lany Corporation in 1938. Does it mean some editor inserted the name "Vilayet" into the published version of "Hyborian Age", or some of REH's drafts were written later then the fall of 1938? (We know draft "d", the published version by Lany, is lost.)

Yes, there were very probably some edits in the published version of "The Hyborian Age", either by REH or by whoever edited this. REH used "Inland Sea" (capitalized or not) in 37 instances (stories, essay or maps) before opting for "Vilayet" in "Iron Shadows", the only exception to that being draft d - and only draft d - of "Hyborian Age". So it's obvious REH (or whoever) changed the denomination to bring it up-to-date, so to speak.

Patrice

Edited by Patrice Louinet, 11 February 2010 - 08:42 PM.

[korak]

Deuce mentions that the same thing would not happen twice to Atali, and that is a good point that should be viewed from a literary standpoint. That is, often, when a writer revises a story, then he considers the final version to be the definitive version. For instance, Poe was always tinkering with his published stories, dropping entire gorgeous paragraphs of prose at times, which to those of us who love his prose seems a shame. But when they published the "definitive" versions in the Library of America, they used the final versions. To get the older versions with the deleted material you have to get an annotated edition such as Mabbott. Well, since Frost Giant had not ever been published at all when he revised it, then it is possible that Howard did not consider it any longer a Conan tale. Thus when he writes about Conan making his debut in print in Tower of the Elephant, he not longer considers Frost Giant to be Conan canon. The same type of argument could be made regarding Black Stranger-- once Howard himself changed it into a Black Vulmea tale, then should it truly be considered a Conan story? Just something to consider.