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Solutreans in America?


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#1 Zombiac

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:36 PM

Here, if it is not too long to post, is the text of an English paper I wrote nine years ago:

A new look at trans-Atlantic migration may explain the origins of the Picts, the Basque, and other mysterious European peoples. Ideas about the origins of the Pre-Columbian American peoples have changed over time, with wild speculation coming and going, and with the writing a revising of history. Once a matter of some speculation, even of ridicule, the idea that the Vikings landed in America hundreds of years before Columbus is now an established fact. The classic idea that America was populated by Neolithic tribes crossing into Alaska from Siberia from an ice sheet or "land bridge" has been challenged by a variety of experiments in re-producing the journeys of Polynesians, Egyptians, and others.
One recent change is that we have begun to view migrations of people to America as being something that did not occur at any single time or by any single type of people. With claims of American origins from every part of the globe, we can see evidence that the early paleo-Americans came from a broad variety of sources. In "First Americans (Origins of Man)", Karen Wright describes a body of evidence from the archaic world that shows, above all, that Archaic Americans were different, both from each other, and from other people known on the earth (Discover feb. 1999). Wright's article in the widely read science magazine describes the way careful measurement of skulls, artifacts, and molecular clues show the 11,500 year old specimen known as "spirit cave man" to most closely resemble the Ainu, the original indigenous people of Japan. She goes on to explain that the notorious bones known collectively as Kennewick man are more European in origin, going so far as to call it "ultra-caucasiod."
Karen Wright pointedly concludes, "It seems that thousands of years before the arrival of Columbus America was already something of a melting pot."
Europe itself has been a historical melting pot, as is virtually every corner of the Earth, where people have roamed and settled. Like America, Europe is also the stage for mysterious people of unknown origin, notably the Picts of ancient Scotland and the modern day Basques of the Iberian peninsula. There are many suggestions that the two peoples may be related. During a number of websites I came across many references to studies in molecular biology—unfortunately the original sources were not named, so the best I can do is sum up what the internet buzz is on the subject in the words of John Mancha from his website "Pre-Indo-European Peoples of Western Europe," where he states "Modern genetics have found a genetic sequence in parts of the British Isles which is typical of the Basques." (http://webpages.acs....preIndoEuro.htm)
While this source is just as ambiguous in documenting the source of these "genetics," as all the rest of them, it contained useful links to other sites on the subject of these people, and it seems appropriate to present the mysteries of these peoples by examining one of these. On the webpage "Picts and Pictish language," Cyril Babaev says that three or more peoples comprised the tribes known as the Picts (http://tied.narod.ru...e/article7.html). These mysterious people have been the subject of much speculation, and Babaev brings up the notion that the Scythians of central Europe are often credited as the group that spawned the Picts. He places the original settlement of the Picts as 1000 B.C. and describes them as short and dark haired, and as having a larger population, a more powerful oceanic fleet, and stronger tribal armies than the Celts. The Romans described them as painted and tattooed, but claims that the term "Pict" may have been a reference to their skin markings ("painted"), as commonly supposed, or may also be a Romanization of another word which the Picts called themselves. He claims the Picts are not Celtic, and examines their language, preserved in Ogham script. The Pictish language, Babaev writes, "has features unknown in continental Indo-European Dialects." Babaev goes on to make a number of linguistic comparisons between the Pictish language and Basque.
Language, migration, customs, and oral tradition forms the basis of what we know of the origins of the world's myriad populations. Yet much of what we learn about the "discovery of America" is continually challenged. The Chinese, for example, were regarded capable of making a journey across the pacific, but it is commonly supposed that being xenophobic and isolationist, they never made the journey. This has been challenged by a number of sources, however. One example is in a transcript of the television series "Engines of Ingenuity," by John H. Lienhard (No.1028: Fusang). Using information from C.G. Leland's "Fusang; or the Discovery of America by Chinese Buddhist Priests in the fifth Century," Lienhard's narration tells the story of the journey of a Buddhist missionary named Hoei-Shin (New York: Barnes and Nobel, 1973) . Lienhard relates that Hoei-Shin made a voyage in 499 A.D. to a land he called Fusang. The recorded mileage of this trip is reported to match the distance between China and Mexico, and Lienhard further relates how Hoei-Shin described uniquely American practices, such as the making of pulque from the agave Plant.
Such pre-Columbian journeys to America are presented in great detail in Steven Sora's "The Lost Treasure of the Knights Templar, solving the Oak Island Mystery." Our ideas of "the discovery of America" are Eurocentric, and owe a great deal to our arrogance and presumptions superiority. Commenting on this phenomenon, Sora says, "Conventional Histories of North America often start with state sponsored explorations of the new world (18)." He follows this criticism with the tantalizing assertion that fishermen had been to the rich fisheries of the North Atlantic coast of Canada prior to any quest for the "Northwest passage." In a somewhat humorous passage commenting on the journeys of French Navigator Jaques Cartier, Sora concisely puts it this way: "In 1534 Cartier's fleet encountered a large French fishing vessel, which Cartier claimed was 'lost,' obviously annoyed that he was not the first to reach the region."(20)
Sora's description of evidence for early migrations to the Americas becomes more juicy as he describes an account from the Norse Chronicles where one of the Norse explorers, Gudlief Gudlaugson, claimed to have encountered a place near the Viking settlements where the inhabitants spoke Irish (41, 46). Gudlief Gudlaugson was said to have been a trader who often went to Ireland and spoke fluent Irish. Sora cites Barry Fell, in "America B.C." as having compiled an extensive list of Celtic and Algonquin words, "that rule out any coincidence of similarities between the languages."(45)
Sora points out that the Iroquois longhouse, while anomalous among North American tribes, is nearly identical in structure to the Norse Longhouse, and that the Norse and Huron Indians both have, as their "trickster" or "devil" god, a person named Loki. (45)
For Sora, all of this is leading up to his contention of a pre-Columbian expedition to Nova Scotia by Antonio Zeno and Henry Sinclair, Sinclair having had ties to the Knights Templar through his Masonic order. It is in supporting the idea of Scottish precedents for such voyages that Sora makes the remarkable link between trans-Atlantic migrations and the origins of the Picts.
Sora describes the Micmac Indians as being a short race of men who had the ability to travel great distances, and who were experienced traders. (55) In what, for me, became the most thought provoking comment in his book, Sora observes, "while we have no problem believing that ancient mariners of Scotland and Ireland and even the Saxons could cross large expanses of water in flimsy, skin boats, we give the natives of North America no such credit." (67)
Sora then goes on to make a number of intriguing connections between the (short, dark) Picts and the (short, dark) Micmac Indians. According to Sora, the Picts and many North Atlantic Indians both customarily dug pits into the ground as the foundation for their homes.(67) The Inuit called these pits "gammes" and the Picts called them "weems." Combining the two terms could lead us to the origin of the word "wigwam (wee-gamme)."(67)
Sora notes that the Picts and the Micmacs both used a stone tool called an "ulo" as a knife, and built similar boats(67). But, most remarkably, Sora describes the matriarchal cultures of the Picts and the Micmacs, and explains that both peoples used the word "maqq" to denote kinship to a matriarch from whom wealth could be inherited. The term "Maqq," Sora observes, was later adapted by the Celts in the form of the Scottish "Mac" and the Irish "Mc."(68)
It seems reasonable to propose, in the light of these assertions, that the origins of the Picts and possibly the Basques and others, might be the product of a continual migration between American and European populations. That much of the migration may have been that of indigenous Americans into Europe is a rather unconventional proposition. Yet, my research supports the idea quite a bit and makes the notion of Scythian migration seem like another frivolous Eurocentric conceit. If it can be demonstrated that the Pictish language has elements that are foreign to Indo-European languages, then why not suppose that two geographically adjacent sea faring races of short, dark men with a common tongue could be related?
A still more compelling case might be made, with more research and more reliable and direct sources. Our country is founded by settlers from Britain, and it has been our tradition that in 1492 a European "Discovered America." For those of us who descended from the British colonists, there is a pleasing symmetry in the notion that the British Isles may have actually been "discovered" by early Americans.
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#2 Kortoso

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 12:57 AM

Very interesting.

#3 Mark_Hall

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 03:07 AM

But my questions are:
1) do you understand how the science of linguistics works?
2) how much of what you cite is self-published literature?
3) how much have you read of kathryn Forsyth's linguistic studies of Pictish and on Pictish archaeology (by other authors)?

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#4 Zombiac

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 03:42 AM

But my questions are:
1) do you understand how the science of linguistics works?
2) how much of what you cite is self-published literature?
3) how much have you read of kathryn Forsyth's linguistic studies of Pictish and on Pictish archaeology (by other authors)?

Best, MEH

Hell, I don't have to know any of that shit! my shit is pseudoscience! ;)
But you never know, it could be true!

Edited by Zombiac, 21 August 2010 - 04:35 AM.

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#5 Kane

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 05:31 AM

Interesting post, Zombiac.

One aspect about possible migration is an Ice Age migration.
Cannot recall all the details, it has been a year or more since I saw the program on the History Channel.
The premise was that during the Ice Age an ice sheet covered the North Atlantic down to the mid French coast, possibly as far south as northern Spain, across the Atlantic to North America. European Cro Magnan would go out on primitive boats and follow the edge of the ice sheet to fish and hunt seals. The anthropologist who advanced this concept also speculated that it might have been a form of banishment to send the outcasts of the tribe into boats and force them into the Atlantic.
He believed that it might have been possible, either through luck or intent, that some of these people were able to make it across the Atlantic to the eastern shores of the North American continent. That the ice sheet was a source of fresh water and that the fish, seals, and other creatures living on the edge of the sheet provided the food needed to make it across.

Well nuts! Seems a quick google search found the information I was trying to recall.
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#6 Mark_Hall

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 04:43 PM

Interesting post, Zombiac.

One aspect about possible migration is an Ice Age migration.
Cannot recall all the details, it has been a year or more since I saw the program on the History Channel.
The premise was that during the Ice Age an ice sheet covered the North Atlantic down to the mid French coast, possibly as far south as northern Spain, across the Atlantic to North America. European Cro Magnan would go out on primitive boats and follow the edge of the ice sheet to fish and hunt seals. The anthropologist who advanced this concept also speculated that it might have been a form of banishment to send the outcasts of the tribe into boats and force them into the Atlantic.
He believed that it might have been possible, either through luck or intent, that some of these people were able to make it across the Atlantic to the eastern shores of the North American continent. That the ice sheet was a source of fresh water and that the fish, seals, and other creatures living on the edge of the sheet provided the food needed to make it across.

Well nuts! Seems a quick google search found the information I was trying to recall.
The Solutrean Theory


The problem with the Solutrean hypothesis, is that the team that advanced it knows little to nothing of the lithic assemblages of the Russian Far East or the Late Palaeolithic
of Japan. Thin, leaf shaped bifacial points are quite common in the Japanese Palaeolithic.

Best, MEH

#7 Teutates

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 10:22 PM

All this eccentric solutrean hypothesis started gaining attention with the Kennewick man affair, as if people with eurasian ancestry could only come via Groenland etc....I mean what about the Bering passage?

Ainu people have a DNA bearing eurasian ancestry partially , similar people may have entered alaska and then Canada at some point and then intermixed with other asian immigrants , the widespread theory is that there were many waves of immigration to populate the american continent at that period, leading to an initial genetic pool bearing much variety .

Something else: it's also an old eccentric view to say that Basques and people from Aquitaine were "picts" or small brown men. everything has been said about basque language, but the most accepted and most serious opinion nowadays is that it's a singularity amongst other indo-european languages: these poeple are indoeuropeans (proven via DNA analysis) but developed their own original language with NO connection whatsoever to any known language (except borrowed words as can be seen in breton language: they borrowed from french).
They're not "picts" .
Or it hasn't been proven at least, scientifically.

Edited by krommtaar, 21 August 2010 - 10:22 PM.


#8 deuce

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 07:48 AM

Welcome to the forum, Zombiac! :D If you don't mind my asking, what does this have to do with Bran Mak Morn? You DO know that the Solutreans have been discussed on another "Picts" thread, right? How do you relate your little thesis to REH's vision of the Picts and his essay, "The Hyborian Age"?

Just wondering. :)

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#9 Ho there Semiramis!

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 04:50 PM

The most widely accepted theory at the moment is that Pictish is a P-Celtic language; that is either a branch of, or shares a common ancestor with British. Attempts to link it to Basque have ended in failure, and are more wishful thinking than anything else, linked to the romantic idea of the Picts as an ancient, non-Indo-European race.
While it is useful to point out the discussion of the Solutrean hypothesis on another forum, it should not rule out its discussion on this or other forums, where it adds to the subject in question.
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#10 Zombiac

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:23 PM

Welcome to the forum, Zombiac! :D If you don't mind my asking, what does this have to do with Bran Mak Morn? You DO know that the Solutreans have been discussed on another "Picts" thread, right? How do you relate your little thesis to REH's vision of the Picts and his essay, "The Hyborian Age"?

Just wondering. :)

Oh, just that Howard's picts were certainly not the historical ones. I first heard about picts when I was 12 or 13 and they always fascinated me. When I was 16 I used to paint myself blue, wear a loincloth and a leather headband and go camping with the SCA.
On another subject, I've heard it said that no one knows who the original inhabitants of Ireland really were, the so called "black Irish."
What fascinates me about them is that one of the central figures in my family's religion was said to have suggested they were from Iran (like my family).
Two things I've seen to support this are that the Badhron is very similar to the Persian hand drum, and that cuchulain has many parallels to the Persian folk hero "Rostam."
All fled--all done, so lift me on the pyre;
The feast is over, and the lamps expire.
Suicide note.
~~ Robert E. Howard, writer, d. June 11, 1936

#11 Zombiac

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 03:02 PM

This is me in my "Pict" costume circa 1983.
I was in the SCA!
Posted Image
All fled--all done, so lift me on the pyre;
The feast is over, and the lamps expire.
Suicide note.
~~ Robert E. Howard, writer, d. June 11, 1936

#12 Kortoso

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:39 PM

And this helps the discussion how?

#13 Zombiac

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 07:12 PM

And this helps the discussion how?

entertainment value? I don't know. Just trying to show you how obscessed I was with Picts! :lol:
All fled--all done, so lift me on the pyre;
The feast is over, and the lamps expire.
Suicide note.
~~ Robert E. Howard, writer, d. June 11, 1936

#14 Taranaich

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 03:56 PM


Welcome to the forum, Zombiac! :D If you don't mind my asking, what does this have to do with Bran Mak Morn? You DO know that the Solutreans have been discussed on another "Picts" thread, right? How do you relate your little thesis to REH's vision of the Picts and his essay, "The Hyborian Age"?

Just wondering. :)

Oh, just that Howard's picts were certainly not the historical ones.


I remain of the opinion that the historical Picts are a misidentified (by the Romans and others) Brythonic tribe who were lumped along with the Howardian Picts. These "Brythonic Picts" were savage even in comparison to other Britons, and conflated with the Picts of Bran Mak Morn. Only the contemporaneous people of Britain, i.e. the Britons, Saxons, Gaels etc, knew the distinction, which itself became lost over the centuries. At some point, the Brythonic Picts drove the Howardian Picts underground, and adopted elements of their mythology and culture, before they themselves were wiped out/absorbed/otherwise usurped during the foundation of Scotland. Or something like that.

On another subject, I've heard it said that no one knows who the original inhabitants of Ireland really were, the so called "black Irish."
What fascinates me about them is that one of the central figures in my family's religion was said to have suggested they were from Iran (like my family).
Two things I've seen to support this are that the Badhron is very similar to the Persian hand drum, and that cuchulain has many parallels to the Persian folk hero "Rostam."


This would tie in with the Cimmerian/Scythian theory - as well as Howard's Hyborian Age. B)

Edited by Taranaich, 29 August 2010 - 03:57 PM.

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#15 docpod

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 04:54 PM

The Irish called the Picts "Cruithne" which is their word for "Briton." Briton is a Romanized version of the original name Pritanni. The Romans changed it to Britanni. The Irish being Q Celtic instead of P Celtic speakers changed Pritanni to Cruithne. The "th" is silent when pronouncing it. Sounds like "Crooney."

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#16 Teutates

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 06:01 PM

The Irish called the Picts "Cruithne" which is their word for "Briton." Briton is a Romanized version of the original name Pritanni. The Romans changed it to Britanni. The Irish being Q Celtic instead of P Celtic speakers changed Pritanni to Cruithne. The "th" is silent when pronouncing it. Sounds like "Crooney."

Morgan


Perhaps they called them "britons" because they came from the largest british Isle: Britain, which doesn't automatically make them 100% genuine Britons. Only DNA analysis could sort this out.

Some people in France inherited "Langlois" (the englishman) as second name and many englishmen the second name "French" .
It could mean a whole lot of things, but isn't solid proof that they are what their names are supposed to indicate, far from that.

So many denominations for tribes, individuals (family names) etc...often erroneously attributed and poorly explained (remember that Cymry -Wales- , where poeple thought it was the mythic Cimmeria, and truth was that it meant comrades, patriots as in gaulish combroges) !

Edited by krommtaar, 29 August 2010 - 06:02 PM.


#17 docpod

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 12:17 AM

My response to that is the Irish had different names for Danish and Norwegian Vikings. Finngall and Dubhgall. So they didn't use names too indiscriminately.

Morgan

[quote name='krommtaar' date='29 August 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1283101306' post='166442']

Morgan
[/quote]

Perhaps they called them "britons" because they came from the largest british Isle: Britain, which doesn't automatically make them 100% genuine Britons. Only DNA analysis could sort this out.

Some people in France inherited "Langlois" (the englishman) as second name and many englishmen the second name "French" .
It could mean a whole lot of things, but isn't solid proof that they are what their names are supposed to indicate, far from that.

So many denominations for tribes, individuals (family names) etc...often erroneously attributed and poorly explained (remember that Cymry -Wales- , where poeple thought it was the mythic Cimmeria, and truth was that it meant comrades, patriots as in gaulish combroges) !
[/quote]
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#18 Almuric

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 08:11 PM

You know, I just realized something. The Scythians came from the general area of the Ukraine. My great-grandfather came from the Ukraine. And if the Scythians were the descendants of the Cimmerians . . . :blink: :o B)
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#19 Teutates

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 01:17 AM

You know, I just realized something. The Scythians came from the general area of the Ukraine. My great-grandfather came from the Ukraine. And if the Scythians were the descendants of the Cimmerians . . . :blink: :o B)


Well scythians were technically nomads, and the area where they lived was so vast (the entire steppe), it could absolutely not be encompassed in just Ukrain! Look: http://upload.wikime...thia_100_BC.png
Plus they're supposed to be of mesopotamian ancestry.

And picts being Scythians is a funky theory. Franks and other germanic tribes such as Saxons all claimed to come from Scythians, who in turn were supposed to descend from lost tribe of Israel. It's early christian tradition during the dark ages, to legitimate their rule, nothing else.
Celts also claimed similar things as well, and it led to "british israelism" (since all the middle ages fabricated theories led to so called Lost Tribes) .
Everyone wants to have mythical ancestry, but aren't all the ancient people mythical anyways?
Look at the Turks, they're so proud of their turko-mongolic ancestors , but rarely mention their Hittite, Greek and Galatian ones (amongst others)

Being anUkrainian, you could very well be descendant of the Rus' tribes coming from scandinavia, Mongols, Scythians, Goths, Turks, Siberian nomads, Khazars, various Slavic tribes etc etc.
Personally I don't think Ukrainians have much to do with Picts, if only just some partial indo-european origins, and even then, it is still not proven.

Edited by krommtaar, 31 August 2010 - 01:19 AM.


#20 deuce

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 06:22 AM


Welcome to the forum, Zombiac! Posted Image If you don't mind my asking, what does this have to do with Bran Mak Morn? You DO know that the Solutreans have been discussed on another "Picts" thread, right? How do you relate your little thesis to REH's vision of the Picts and his essay, "The Hyborian Age"?

Just wondering. Posted Image

Oh, just that Howard's picts were certainly not the historical ones. I first heard about picts when I was 12 or 13 and they always fascinated me. When I was 16 I used to paint myself blue, wear a loincloth and a leather headband and go camping with the SCA.
On another subject, I've heard it said that no one knows who the original inhabitants of Ireland really were, the so called "black Irish."
What fascinates me about them is that one of the central figures in my family's religion was said to have suggested they were from Iran (like my family).
Two things I've seen to support this are that the Badhron is very similar to the Persian hand drum, and that cuchulain has many parallels to the Persian folk hero "Rostam."


So this thread belongs on the "Bran Mak Morn" board? There are several "Pict" threads on the "Off-Topic" board. Glad to hear about your fascination. :) Read Mowat's The Alban Quest for a plausible historical origin for the Picts. Very Howardian.

I've yet to hear that any of the tribes/invaders of Erin were from Iran (as opposed to, say, "Scythia"). REH was certainly aware that the Persians (and Indians) were related to the Indo-European tribes that invaded Europe. He made note of that in more than one letter. All your parallels are easily explained. :)

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