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#201 deuce

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:49 AM

Damn, AtL! Stuff like this makes me wish I'd finished posting my annotations on the HotD thread. However, seeing a simple list like this tends to cause things to jump out that might not otherwise. Which is cool. B)
Some quibbles/observations...

The Hour of the Dragon Dramatis Personæ

Amalric - Nemedian, baron of Tor, de facto ruler of Nemedia, unknown if he is the same Nemedian Lord Amalric a general from Black Colossus

King Nimed - Nemedian, King of Nemedia

King Namedides - Aquilonian, former King of Aquilonia

Pallantides - Aquilonian, commander of the Black Dragons, general of the Aquilonian army

Prince Almuric - Kothian, rebel prince


Three of those five names, all belonging to Western Hyborians of noble blood, are demonstrably NOT "Greco-Romanesque". Interesting. :)

While I would've LOVED it if Baron Amalric was the same as "BC Amalric", the two have different hair colors (and possibly other differences I don't recall at the moment). BTW, "Amalric" is the original version of Italian "Amerigo". So, we/(most of us) live in "North Amalrica". ;)

The similarity of "Nimed" to "Namedidies" would seem to reinforce the close connections between Aquilonia and Nemedia, as implied /stated by REH.

I'm not sure where exactly... but Taranaich has made a strong argument for Pallantides being an Ophirean.

Zenobia - Nemedian?, girl of the Nemedian king's seraglio, Queen of Aquilonia


Are you just being cautious regarding Zenobia's background? You'd think Conan/REH would note her having a non-Nemedian accent.

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#202 deuce

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:45 AM

More stuff...

The Hour of the Dragon Dramatis Personæ

Tiberias - Aquilonian, renegade, traitor, broken man


Wouldn't "insurgent" and "rebel" be better terms? It's not like Valerius' government was legitimate in anything but the broadest definition.

Baal - Acheronian/demonic, Xaltotun's servant, acolyte

Chiron - Acheronian/demonic, Xaltotun's servant, acolyte

Kings of Archeron - Archeronian


"Acheron" only has one "r".

"Baal" is interesting, linguistically (see below). "Chiron" as well. Was the latter derived (in a sub-creational sense) from the "Karon" of the Kull yarns? The name had to be transmitted through the ages somehow.

Kozaki - Hyrkanian


The kozaki fought the Hyrkanians. They were composed of ethnically Hyborian renegades. Is there something I'm missing here?

Ahriman - Hyborian god/devil


Good one. Likely one and the same with Set. Robert E. Howard equated Set, Ahriman and Satan in a couple of yarns.

Ishtar - Hyborian/Shemitish fertility goddess

Baal - Archeronian/ Shemitish god/demon


Ishtar is worshipped by the Hyborians of Koth, but she is not (technically, IMO) "Hyborian". She's Shemitish (and actually of Lemurian/Muvian origin).

It's interesting that you posit "Baal" as an Acheronian deity. I've wondered myself just what Xaltotun's acolyte's name might signify in regards to Acheron. Of course, it might be like a 40's gangster nicknaming his dwarfish European toady, "Igor".

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#203 Amra_the_Lion

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 02:52 PM

Interesting observations deuce. More stuff to ponder.

While I would've LOVED it if Baron Amalric was the same as "BC Amalric", the two have different hair colors (and possibly other differences I don't recall at the moment). BTW, "Amalric" is the original version of Italian "Amerigo". So, we/(most of us) live in "North Amalrica". ;)


While it never says what hair color Amalric has in The Hour of the Dragon we know that in Black Colossus the Amalric there has a lion-like yellow mane. One would think that since in Hour Valerius is described multiple times as yellow-haired to distinguish himself from the group he is in that includes Amalric, that is strong circumstantial evidence that the Hour Amalric has other than blonde hair. But as the possibility exists that he is blonde but not as yellow-haired as Valerius it could still be. But I will concede it is not very likely. Although I still standby my "unknown if" possibility.

I'm not sure where exactly... but Taranaich has made a strong argument for Pallantides being an Ophirean.


"Pallantides was sorely wounded at Valkia, was ransomed by his family,
and now lies in his castle in Attains.
He will be fortunate if he ever
rides again."
- The Hour of the Dragon

"But Pallantides is back from exile in Ophir, swearing that the king was ill in his tent that day,
and that a man-at-arms wore his harness, and a squire who but recently recovered from
the stroke of a mace received at Valkia confirms his tale--or pretends
to."
- The Hour of the Dragon


Yes I would say that is strong evidence he is Ophirean, good catch.

Are you just being cautious regarding Zenobia's background? You'd think Conan/REH would note her having a non-Nemedian accent.


Yes just being cautious. As it is never stated.

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Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#204 Amra_the_Lion

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 03:22 PM

Wouldn't "insurgent" and "rebel" be better terms? It's not like Valerius' government was legitimate in anything but the broadest definition.


Tiberias - Aquilonian, renegade, traitor, broken man

Possibly they would be better terms, but I opted to use the words Howard chose to describe him.

"Who are you, you filthy dog?" demanded the Nemedian. "Call me Tiberias," answered the man, and his teeth clicked in an involuntary spasm. "I have come to tell you how to trap Conan." "A traitor, eh?" rumbled the baron. - The Hour of the Dragon

"Conan knows nothing of it," laughed Tiberias. "It was the plot of broken men, of men you ruined and turned to beasts." - The Hour of the Dragon

Although it seems in my haste I included renegade which is applied more towards the soldiers riding with Valerius than Tiberias, so good catch on that one.

The five thousand horsemen who accompanied Valerius were hard-bitten Aquilonian renegades for the most part. In the still starlight they moved out of the sleeping camp, following the westward trend of the great black masses that rose against the stars ahead of them. Valerius rode at their head, and beside him rode Tiberias, a leather thong about his wrist gripped by a man-at-arms who rode on the other side of him. Others kept close behind with drawn swords. - The Hour of the Dragon

"Acheron" only has one "r".



Good catch.

Kozaki - Hyrkanian

The kozaki fought the Hyrkanians. They were composed of ethnically Hyborian renegades. Is there something I'm missing here?


The only time it is listed in Hour is when Conan is referring to himself so I guess it should be Cimmerian <_< . Not sure why I included that. Good catch.

a hetman of the kozaki who dwell along the Zaporoska River - The Hour of the Dragon

But the Kozaki can be either mercenaries as the Free Companions, Hyborian renegades, or even born on the steppes. If it is the latter I would submit that being born in Hyrkanian territory makes them Hyrkanian by nationality if not ethnicity. Which doesn't amount to much since the quote is about Conan anyway. More thoughts on the Kozaki earlier in the thread:

http://www.conan.com...ndpost&p=172990

Ishtar - Hyborian/Shemitish fertility goddess

Ishtar is worshipped by the Hyborians of Koth, but she is not (technically, IMO) "Hyborian". She's Shemitish (and actually of Lemurian/Muvian origin).


Each deity listed with nationality is listed as such because they are worshipped by them not necessarily that they themselves belong in that group as you pointed out.

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Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#205 deuce

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:16 PM

Interesting observations deuce. More stuff to ponder.


While I would've LOVED it if Baron Amalric was the same as "BC Amalric", the two have different hair colors (and possibly other differences I don't recall at the moment). BTW, "Amalric" is the original version of Italian "Amerigo". So, we/(most of us) live in "North Amalrica". ;)



While it never says what hair color Amalric has in The Hour of the Dragon we know that in Black Colossus the Amalric there has a lion-like yellow mane. One would think that since in Hour Valerius is described multiple times as yellow-haired to distinguish himself from the group he is in that includes Amalric, that is strong circumstantial evidence that the Hour Amalric has other than blonde hair. But as the possibility exists that he is blonde but not as yellow-haired as Valerius it could still be. But I will concede it is not very likely. Although I still standby my "unknown if" possibility.


From my annotations on the HotD thread:


Amalric: A "dark, powerful man", he was "baron of Tor, in Nemedia" and an old benefactor of Orastes. (p.84, 86)

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#206 Amra_the_Lion

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 06:10 AM

From my annotations on the HotD thread:


Amalric: A "dark, powerful man", he was "baron of Tor, in Nemedia" and an old benefactor of Orastes. (p.84, 86)


Keen observation. Indeed if the large man in fur trimmed robe at the foot of the sarcophagus is Orastes, on the right is small dark Tarascus, on the left tall yellow-haired Valerius, that leaves a dark powerful man Amalric at the head of the sarcophagus.

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#207 deuce

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:55 AM


From my annotations on the HotD thread:


Amalric: A "dark, powerful man", he was "baron of Tor, in Nemedia" and an old benefactor of Orastes. (p.84, 86)


Keen observation. Indeed if the large man in fur trimmed robe at the foot of the sarcophagus is Orastes, on the right is small dark Tarascus, on the left tall yellow-haired Valerius, that leaves a dark powerful man Amalric at the head of the sarcophagus.


Honestly, I really wanted the Baron of Tor to be the same as Amalric of "BC". It would've been SO cool on numerous levels. So, I studied that scene very carefully for my annotations. However, there appear to be TWO Nemedian Amalrics. :(

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#208 deuce

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:26 PM


Are you placing these in the Conan Wikia?


No but you can if you like. It is a little too muddled for my taste with all the various incarnations of Conan without references to where the stories, characters, etc are found and without drawing a clear line between pastiche and original.


Amen to that. B) Actually, I think that a "Robert E. Howard's Original Conan the Cimmerian" would be doable as a new Wiki entry.

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#209 Ironhand

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:56 AM



Are you placing these in the Conan Wikia?


No but you can if you like. It is a little too muddled for my taste with all the various incarnations of Conan without references to where the stories, characters, etc are found and without drawing a clear line between pastiche and original.


Amen to that. B) Actually, I think that a "Robert E. Howard's Original Conan the Cimmerian" would be doable as a new Wiki entry.

Great idea! :)
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

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#210 Amra_the_Lion

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:14 AM

Magicians, Sorcerers, Wizards, Necromancers, Illusionists, and other magic users of the Hyborian Age

Magic and the supernatural abound in Howard's Conan tales. Here are some of the magic users or possessors of supernatural power mentioned:

Definite Magic Users i.e. direct evidence in the story of magic use or supernatural power or nominally

Ymir - Nordheimr god

Atali - Ymir's Daughter, Nordheimr god

Frost Giants/Ice Giants - Ymir's Sons, Nordheimr gods

Yara - Zamorian high priest

Yag-Kosha/Yogah of Yag - Demon of the Elder World, from the green planet Yag

Thugra Khotan, Natohk the Veiled One - Stygian, Dark Sorcerer

Skelos - Acheronian, necromancer

Salome - Khaurani/Askhaurian, Witch

Totrasmek - Turanian/Hyrkanian, the high priest of Hanuman

Baal-pteor - Kosalan, Illusionist, strangler of Yota-pong

Khosatral Khel - Transmutated sorcerer, the ancient from the Abyss, Dagonian god

Khemsa - Vendhyan, magician, Rakhsha-protector, accolyte of the Black Seers of Yimsha, Brahmin

Black Seers of Yimsha - Inhumans, demons, wizards, Rakhshas, Lords of The Black Circle

The Master of Yimsha - Human, wizard, Rakhsha, shape-shifter

Accolytes of the Black Seers of Yimsha

Magicians of Kheshatta - Stygian

Tascela - Tlazitlan, Princess of Tecuhltli, witch

Xotalanc wizards - Tlazitlan, Xotalancas

Kings of Xuchotl - Kosalan, Magicians

Zogar Sag - Pict, Gwaweli tribe, Pictish wizard, shaman, Jhebbal Sag's son

Conan the Cimmerian - Usage of Jhebbal Sag's magic symbol to divert a panther

Black magician - Zingaran

The Black Stranger, The Black Man - waif of darkness of the black folk

Thoth-amon of the Ring - Stygian, sorcerer, necromancer, master priest of Set

Rammon- Stygian, sorcerer

Epemitreus the Sage - Aquilonian, sorcerer

Tsotha-Lanti - Kothian (residence), half -Zamorian, half-demonic, wizard, necromancer, de facto ruler of Koth

Pelias - Kothian, sorcerer

Xaltotun of Python - Acheronian, sorcerer of the Black Ring, high priest of Set, undead mummy

Orastes - Nemedian, disavowed priest of Mitra, sorcerer

Zelata - Aquilonian, oracle, witch

Hadrathus - Vendhyan, priest of Asura

Thutothmes - Stygian, priest of Set, sorcerer of the Black Ring

Akivasha - Stygian, Princess, daughter of Tuthamon, vampire

Thothmekri - Stygian, high priest of Set, sorcerer of the Black Ring, undead mummy

The Black Ring - Acheronians, Stygians, necromancers, sorcerers

Votaries of the Black Ring - Acheronians, Stygians, necromancers, sorcerers, acolytes

Four Khitans - Khitan, vassals to King Valerius, sorcerers

Pictish shaman - Pict - created the choking mist protecting the treasure of Tranicos - The Black Stranger

Probable Magic Users

Yellow-skulled priests of Yun -Khitains

Nabonidus - Corinthian, the Red Priest, the king's priest, sorcerer

Black warriors - Iron Shadows in the Moon

Black Ones - Demonic inhabitants of the island - The Pool of the Black One

King of the Black Ones - Demonic ruler of the Black Ones - The Pool of the Black One

forest devil, swamp devil, blue witch-fire demon - from the Misty Lands

fire-being - Swamp demon's mother

Altaro - Nemedian, Oraste's servant, acolyte

Baal - Acheronian/demonic, Xaltotun's servant, acolyte

Chiron - Acheronian/demonic, Xaltotun's servant, acolyte

Stygian priests

Child of Darkness - demon of the outer dark

Possible Magic Users

Priest of Anu - Corinthian

Stygian masked priests of Kuthchemes

Votaries of Skelos

Vathelos the Blind

Votaries of Natohk, nomadic tribesmen, Zugite cultists

Ophirean priest

Zang - Khitain?, priest

Yuetshi priest, unknown race

Amir Khurum - Afghuli legendary figure

Askia - Kushite, Sakumbe's fanatical priest, witch-finder

Daura - Aphaki, Zehbeh's priest

Ollam-onga - Vampire, god of Gazal

Kushite priest

Gorulga - Keshani, High priest of Keshia

Bit-Yakin - Shemitish/Pelishtim, wise man, oracle fraud

Gwarunga - Keshani, priest of Keshia

Priests of Keshia - Keshani

Acolytes - Keshani

Old Garogh/Teyanoga - Pict, Hawk-Skondaga/Onayaga tribe, Pictish shaman

Pictish witch of Skandaga - Pict, half-breed Hawk-Skondaga/Onayaga tribe, Socandaga/Ligurean, Garogh/Teyanoga's daughter, Valerian's mistress

Hermit-priest - Kothian

slave of the ring - fiendish goblin, an eldritch horror, baboon like mummy

Votaries and Acolytes of Set - Stygians

High priest of Mitra - Aquilonian

Inner circle priests of Mitra - Hyborians

Followers of Asura - Vendhyans, priests

Mitran priests - Aquilonians, priests of Mitra

Kalanthes of Hanumar - Stygian, priest of Ibis

Agara/Ageera - Kushite, Gallah Tribe, witch-finder

Gods and Deities are automatically considered possessors of supernatural power if they exist

Deities and Demi-gods of the Hyborian Age

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 01 May 2012 - 02:37 AM.

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#211 Aza9

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:18 AM

This is probably my favorite thread on this forum. Great stuff!

Thanks, Amra!
I woulda kept Thothmekri for awhile. He could come in handy.

#212 Amra_the_Lion

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:29 AM

This is probably my favorite thread on this forum. Great stuff!

Thanks, Amra!


Thank you for liking it and you're welcome.

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#213 RJMooreII

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:37 PM

So, we/(most of us) live in "North Amalrica".

I am going to use that all the time now, thanks.
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#214 Halfdane

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:35 AM

Amalric: A "dark, powerful man", he was "baron of Tor, in Nemedia" and an old benefactor of Orastes. (p.84, 86)


Honestly, I really wanted the Baron of Tor to be the same as Amalric of "BC". It would've been SO cool on numerous levels. So, I studied that scene very carefully for my annotations. However, there appear to be TWO Nemedian Amalrics. :(


Is that one word really the only thing closing the door to the possibility that the two are one and the same?

Amalric in BC was likely already Conan's senior. Add to that the 20+ years that might have passed between then & THotD...I'd find it pretty unlikely that Amalric would still have yellow hair.

I'll use actor James Cosmo as an example, as I seem to recall somebody on this forum mentioning him as an ideal casting choice for some Amalric or another.

Highlander, 1986 with a lion-like yellow mane.
Spoiler


Game of Thrones, 2011
Twenty-five years later, the lion-like yellow mane is gone. Could easily be described as "dark".
Spoiler


#215 Ironhand

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:12 AM

I have come to the conclusion that Amalric or Amalrus or something similar is a very popular name among Hyborians, sort of like John or James or William among Europeans.

If I start writing screenplays again, I will try to work something in about a Mitraist saint named "St. Amalric". ^_^

Edited by Ironhand, 23 September 2012 - 07:14 AM.

"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject

#216 Halfdane

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:34 AM

I have come to the conclusion that Amalric or Amalrus or something similar is a very popular name among Hyborians, sort of like John or James or William among Europeans.


Yeah. And Valerius, etc. And Arus the watchman is certainly different than the emissary to the Picts (though it would be funny if they were the same). Having common names is actually refreshing to me. It worked for Howard's audience, and it fit his seat-of-the-pants style of writing to recycle things he liked.

Most fiction seems to observe two rules. 1) Everybody is related, or knows each other from somewhere, has met, will meet again, etc. 2) Rarely do characters have the same name unless it's a plot point.

Leave it to Howard to leave us asking "Wait...is that the same Amalric?" "Is that the same Gunderman deserter?" (To keep this on the topic of chronology I'll add that I'd like to think the Gunderman deserter in TTotE, Nestor from the fragment, and the Gunderman in RitH are all one and the same; and probably also the reason Conan ends up with the Corinthian mercenaries). So I like that Conan runs into people that he's met before, but we've never met them before. And that there are common names in the Hyborian Age. The slight cultural variations like Amalric/Amalrus really sell it, too.

I'm just wondering if the mention of dark is the only alleged discrepancy between Amalrics that's been detected so far. I can't find anything else. Anybody???

#217 constantine

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:17 PM

I'm just wondering if the mention of dark is the only alleged discrepancy between Amalrics that's been detected so far. I can't find anything else. Anybody???


If there was a single chance that they were the same Amalrics, then there would be an indication of sorts in THotD, either by Conan or the Nemedian baron. The events of BC are epic enough that they would recall them as well as those partook in them. But no hint whatsoever. It is simply the case of a popular western Hyborian name.

#218 arus

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:45 PM

I'm just wondering if the mention of dark is the only alleged discrepancy between Amalrics that's been detected so far. I can't find anything else. Anybody???


If there was a single chance that they were the same Amalrics, then there would be an indication of sorts in THotD, either by Conan or the Nemedian baron. The events of BC are epic enough that they would recall them as well as those partook in them. But no hint whatsoever. It is simply the case of a popular western Hyborian name.

And the fact that last time we see BC Amalric he has a spear through his thigh. I think his life under Conan's command was a short one if not merry, as well. :)


But I have to say that this thread is amazing. I have had it bookmarked for some time now. It is a great source of information if you want to check something or just read some interesting facts.

#219 Amra_the_Lion

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:05 PM

But I have to say that this thread is amazing. I have had it bookmarked for some time now. It is a great source of information if you want to check something or just read some interesting facts.


Thanks arus

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#220 deuce

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 09:43 PM


I'm just wondering if the mention of dark is the only alleged discrepancy between Amalrics that's been detected so far. I can't find anything else. Anybody???


If there was a single chance that they were the same Amalrics, then there would be an indication of sorts in THotD, either by Conan or the Nemedian baron. The events of BC are epic enough that they would recall them as well as those partook in them. But no hint whatsoever. It is simply the case of a popular western Hyborian name.

And the fact that last time we see BC Amalric he has a spear through his thigh. I think his life under Conan's command was a short one if not merry, as well. :)


A thread dedicated to the several Amalrics of the Hyborian Age:


http://www.conan.com...owtopic=7239=

But I have to say that this thread is amazing. I have had it bookmarked for some time now. It is a great source of information if you want to check something or just read some interesting facts.


Agreed. B)

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