70 replies to this topic

[ollonois]

I think is a concept coined by Al Harron, and a concept he doesn't like specially, but for me the thing is although geographically Aquilonia could be France its administration and the names are clearly inspired in the roman empire, Tarantia for me sounds similar to Tarento and I think there is a region in Italy called Aquilonia I even remember a saga in Savage sword of Conan that in Spain they called Conan the gladiator with a very young and gorgeous emperess called Aurelia and with Conan fighting in a kind of roman arena
But later you think about the feudal economy and political organization and medieval knights in the cavalry and... what do you think or how do you see Aquilonia? the roman empire or feudal France or both of them?

Edited by ollonois, 07 February 2011 - 11:59 PM.

[deuce]

I think is a concept coined by Al Harron, and a concept he doesn't like specially

Al coined the term, not the concept.

for me the thing is although geographically Aquilonia could be France its administration and the names are clearly inspired in the roman empire

I've never tried to say that Aquilonia "is" France. However, it's culture, politics, military organization, weapons technology, economics, clothing etc are all clearly more analogous to medieval Western Europe than they are the Roman Empire. I'd like you to point out what elements of Aquilonian admininstration (in the stories written by REH) are "clearly inspired" by the Roman Empire. Perhaps I missed the mention of the Aquilonian Senate. Some Aquilonian names are of Rome or pseudo-Roman derivation. You also see this in Argos, Nemedia, Ophir, Koth, Corinthia and Brythunia as well. Are ALL of those countries "Roman Empires"? That's a LOT of "Roman Empires".

Tarantia for me sounds similar to Tarento

Patrice Louinet believes (and I agree) that "Tamar" (the original name for the Aquilonian capital) and "Tarantia" were derived by REH from "Tamar" and "Tara", both of which are names for the ancient capital of Gaelic Ireland.

I think there is a region in Italy called Aquilonia

There is. There is also an "Aquilonia" in Brittany. The Italian Aquilonia was named after Aquilon, the god of the North Wind. The Hyperborea of Greek legend was named after the Greek god of the North Wind. Robert E. Howard stated that "Hybori" means "people of Bori". "Aquiloni" would be just another way of saying "people of the North Wind". Aquilonia appears to have been named after the god, Aquilion, NOT the Italian town. That is Mr. Louinet's opinion as well, from what I understand.

I even remember a saga in Savage sword of Conan that in Spain they called Conan the gladiator with a very young and gorgeous emperess called Aurelia and with Conan fighting in a kind of roman arena

I'm honestly not sure what some comics pastiche writer's idea of Aquilonia has to do with this discussion. I could sit down tonight and write a story about Conan adventuring in Aquilonia... Conan would encounter the "King of Aquilonia". Said king (named "Maximus") would travel about in a chariot drawn by reindeer. Maximus would have a hoplite from one of his brigades shoot Conan down with a blow-gun (the primary Aquilonian weapon). Conan would awaken to be told that he must single-handedly defeat the visiting women's lacrosse team from Nemedia (where they make rice paper and travel via skateboards). If Conan loses, he will have his head shrunken (another Aquilonian custom). Conan wins and Bulimia (she's got a "Roman" name as well) falls in love with Conan. He travels with her and she gets him appointed admiral of the Nenedian Navy. I could get that published in a couple of weeks on Lulu.com. Doesn't mean anything in regards to how Robert E. Howard described Aquilonia. Your pastiche does bring up the point that REH never mentioned gladiatorial combat or endemic slavery (two towering hallmarks of Roman culture) in connection with Aquilonia. Hope that helps.

[ollonois]

your answers always are interesting and thought provoking, by the way Aquilonia= people of the north wind Kansas= people of the south wind... ...

[krommtaar]

@Deuce

1)Ollonois' memories are inexact: the episode with Conan fighting in the arena with a certain empress "Auraldia" is happening in NEMEDIA and not in Aquilonia
(ssoc 146 or 147 if I remember)
Besides Dixon wrote the scenario and Nemedia is depicted as Rome , clichéed as we've all seen it in sword'n sandal movies.


2)You say Tarantia comes from Tara, the fabled place of the Ard Ri, but why did Howard lenghthen it with -ntia making it sound like Tarento ?

Tarento in latin is Tarentum which comes from greek Taras.

We all know Howard always delighted to find some odd link between similar sounding names (Tara/Taras) didn't he? So from Tara&Tamar to Taras(Tarentum)...nothing more natural for him I guess

Quimper in Brittany was called Civitas Aquilonia , and Brittany was founded by Conan Meriadec according to Monmouth. I bet that influenced his choice for "Aquilonia" ?

Edited by krommtaar, 08 February 2011 - 06:03 AM.

[ollonois]

it was Nemedia? yes, I remember but I though she was Aurelia, I believed Chuck Dixon was more respectful to the howardian sources, but I'm sure of one thing it were two or three issues of SSOC

[deuce]

it was Nemedia? yes, I remember but I though she was Aurelia, I believed Chuck Dixon was more respectful to the howardian sources, but I'm sure of one thing it were two or three issues of SSOC

Dixon also created the "Nemedian Navy", which I referred to in my "pastiche". While Chuck is a decent writer, he never seems to have worried about whether he was being remotely accurate in regard to the Hyborian Age that Robert E. Howard created. Hardly any of the Conan pasticheurs have been.

[deuce]

your answers always are interesting and thought provoking, by the way Aquilonia= people of the north wind Kansas= people of the south wind... ...

Good point!

[deuce]

You say Tarantia comes from Tara, the fabled place of the Ard Ri, but why did Howard lenghthen it with -ntia making it sound like Tarento ?

Tarento in latin is Tarentum which comes from greek Taras.

We all know Howard always delighted to find some odd link between similar sounding names (Tara/Taras) didn't he? So from Tara&Tamar to Taras(Tarentum)...nothing more natural for him I guess

It always possible. Considering that "Tamar" is in no way "Roman", I think Louinet's theory that "Tamar" derives from Tamara/Temhaire is quite strong (Golamira has a Gaelic look to it as well). REH eliding "Tara" with "Taranto" is a possibility. The two roots would then be Gaelic and Greek, NOT "Roman". There's a Gaelic connection to Taranto, BTW. Its patron saint is Cataldo/Cathal, an Irishman.

Quimper in Brittany was called Civitas Aquilonia , and Brittany was founded by Conan Meriadec according to Monmouth. I bet that influenced his choice for "Aquilonia" ?

Once again, possible. There's no record of REH reading Monmouth, but he probably did.

[ollonois]

and that aquiromans motive of Al Harron complaints where do they were published? in the comics of Dark horse? some modern pasticheur? some issues in Marvel?

[Pictish Scout]

I think this discussion about Aquilonia (or even Nemedia) having roman or medieval influences is eternal. It exists even in the illustrations on the pages of the Weird Tales. Why so?

It is easy to find the medieval aspects of Aquilonia: the way they dress, the way they fight, etc. I know this was discussed a lot and I was involved in some of these discussions. But I do think Howard (even though his dislike for Rome) used direct roman/classic influences when he designed Aquilonia and Nemedia, especially Nemedia. And I don’t think Nemedia is ever depicted as an evil kingdom like Stygia or Acheron.

Is Aquilonia a fantasy pseudo Medieval/Renascence realm? I think it is. But there is some “romaness” also in Aquilonia…oh, and some “celticness” and some “18th centuryness”…

I agree the Angevin Empire served as a major model for Aquilonia, yet when in the Hyborian Age essay Howard writes about Aquilonian legions, the extent of their empire, the role of barbarians in the Aquilonian military and the subsequent invasion… it doesn’t remind me of any medieval event.

Well… there were barbarian invasions in China, India, etc…but I do think that, at least this time, Howard was inspired by the history of Rome.

When did barbarians sack and destroy the Angevin Empire? Is there any parallel for Gorm the Pict in the history of the Angevin Empire?

Because of this I think there will always be this discussion about Rome vs Medieval Aquilonia.

The simple answer for me is: Aquilonia has both inspirations because Howard wanted it that way.

About the cover of the comic, these guys aren’t dressed the way Howard described the Aquilonian warriors. Their warriors use medieval gear and technology yet Howard writes about some Ballistas in the pictish border… Ballistas placed in an 18th century like stockade. That’s how complex Aquilonia is. My brain hurts lol

EDITED:

Tell me, can you find "Gault Hagar's son" (or a very close analog) in any Classical records?

I remember a very close exemple: "Camalus Viriati". which means "Camalo Viriato's son". It is writen in latin but "Camalo" and "Viriato" aren't roman names but native Iberian ones, used by a guy who lived in the western border of the roman empire. These native names were used even by roman citizens of iberian origins.

Edited by Pictish Scout, 28 February 2011 - 05:21 AM.

[ollonois]

Numedides, as characterisized by L Sprague de Camp, Lin Carter and Roy Thomas is more a mad emperor than a feudal lord or a medieval king, the pastiche and comics are the responsibiles of the romanization of Aquilonia

[Pictish Scout]

I think they exaggerated the roman aspect. In the comics you could see some medieval castles in the background and some soldiers were pretty medieval. But the Aquilonian king was depicted as a Nero like character or something.

Also we can find some ?roman? interpretations even in the early days, before the comics and pastichers.
Maybe some spoilers next:

Please try to compare this illustration with the description REH provides in this scene in ?The Pheonix on the Sword?.


This one I am not sure if it is a Weird Tales cover. I think it illustrates a scene in ?The Hour of the Dragon?. I don?t know what were the artist sources for this illustration?

[witchfire]

when you read a book for the first time (if it has been made into a movie yet) you get an image
in your head from the descripitive in the text.
how you picture a character , the landscape ,ect depend entirely on your
own imagination .

when you read about the aquilonians do you picture some knights templar in
jousting armor with longsword & kite shields or do you see roman legionnaires in
musculata with pilum , gladius & scutum shileds ?

personaly when back when i think of the siege of veranium, i see a bunch
of celts assaulting a roman fort

that's the beauty of books compare to movies:every one gets his very own
image of the story

[deuce]

In the first of a three-part series, Al Harron looks at the "Aquiromian" question:


http://theblogthatti...an-holiday.html

[deuce]

when you read a book for the first time (if it has been made into a movie yet) you get an image in your head from the descripitive in the text. how you picture a character , the landscape ,ect depend entirely on your own imagination .

Fine. However, if one's "imagination" is that of a 13yr-old (such was MY case), should one stick with that until their dying day?

when you read about the aquilonians do you picture some knights templar in jousting armor with longsword & kite shields or do you see roman legionnaires in musculata with pilum , gladius & scutum shileds ?

You are loading the dice, Witchfire, and you (should) know it. Robert E. Howard NEVER depicted Aquilonians in musculata OR "jousting armor". The Knights Templar (whom Howard never seemed to have a problem with) certainly never wore "jousting armor" in actual combat. Jousting armor was intended for JUST that; jousting. About like saying that US soldiers in Iraq wear American football "armor". REH said that "Gundermen" were at Venarium. He also pointed out (In "Wolves Beyond the Border") that the Gundermen wore mail. Kinda blows your paradigm out of the water. Here's a link to Gaelic Irish assaulting Gundermen (sorry, Scots and Englishmen): http://en.wikipedia....bellion_of_1641

personaly when back when i think of the siege of veranium, i see a bunch of celts assaulting a roman fort

I'm honestly curious what cues/clues you got from Robert E. Howard (besides the name) that pointed you in the "Aquiromian" direction (when back when, that is). Other than "Veranium", what tipped you off?

that's the beauty of books compare to movies:every one gets his very own image of the story

Yeah, it's really beautiful when the nation that Robert E. Howard considered butchers/racketeers somehow becomes the "heroes" of a new generation (or, that the Hyborian kingdom that Conan most admired becomes a "pseudo-Rome"). Like I said, it's one thing to form an image when a child/teenager, another when an adult.

[deuce]

Part Two of Al Harron's "Aquiromian" series:

http://theblogthatti...an-holiday.html

[constantine]

This ''Roman '' stuff about Aquilonia really blows my mind. Apart from personal and locality names (maybe even the country's name, though I think French Aquitaine might have also been a source of inspiration), few things in Howard's Conan stories have anything to do with a ''Romanized'' Aquilonia. In fact, the said names are, basically, the closest REH could get to anything Roman regarding Conan's contemporary Hyborians, especially his (relatively) favored Aquilonians. If anything, the Hyborian cultures are predominantly ''medieval'' as they are presented in Howard's stories. And althoughI find the illustrations of Frazetta and other artists enjoyable, they have little to do with REH's original Conan material.

Nuff said and most of it has already been dealt with by others. I just felt I should speak my part...

[Kortoso]

Robert E. Howard NEVER depicted Aquilonians in segmentata OR "jousting armor". The Knights Templar (whom Howard never seemed to have a problem with) certainly never wore "jousting armor" in actual combat. Jousting armor was intended for JUST that; jousting. About like saying that US soldiers in Iraq wear American football "armor".

While it's technically incorrect to call all plate armor "jousting armor", you know he was referring to such as worn by Conan in BC : "At her command they brought harness to replace Conan's chain-mail--gorget, sollerets, cuirass, pauldrons, jambes, cuisses and sallet".

[Taranaich]

In the first of a three-part series, Al Harron looks at the "Aquiromian" question:

http://theblogthatti...an-holiday.html

It's now expanded into a five-part series, which is why the next part has been delayed. Part Three should be up sometime this week.

[deuce]

Robert E. Howard NEVER depicted Aquilonians in segmentata OR "jousting armor". The Knights Templar (whom Howard never seemed to have a problem with) certainly never wore "jousting armor" in actual combat. Jousting armor was intended for JUST that; jousting. About like saying that US soldiers in Iraq wear American football "armor".

While it's technically incorrect to call all plate armor "jousting armor", you know he was referring to such as worn by Conan in BC : "At her command they brought harness to replace Conan's chain-mail--gorget, sollerets, cuirass, pauldrons, jambes, cuisses and sallet".

Quite honestly, I have ZERO idea what Witchfire was referring to. He just popped in and started spouting stuff about "musculata" and "jousting armor" and "Templars" and "imagination". If he MEANT "field plate" or "plate armor", he should have said so.

You're quite right that Conan was harnessed up in late-Medieval-style gear in BC (not to mention HotD and PotS).