Ever since the Arnold movie in 1982 I’ve heard Conan fans say that it was a good flick but it could have just have easily been called Ba-bar the Barbarian because it wasn’t REH’s Conan or ‘my’ Conan. It would appear that the latest movie will owe more to the 1982 movie than to REH (speculation on my part I admit) and I once again hear the chorus of voices rising in derision.
From my reading of the boards there are are various levels of attitude toward Conan movies that could be made and might satisfy fans. I’ll loosely break them down as follows:
1) I’m fine with the 1982 movie. As long as the plot is good, the action stellar, and the women are buxom I’m happy. Long live Ba-Bar!
2) Give me an adaptation of a pastiche by Carter, DeCamp, Green, or Perry. The movie will at least share the name Conan from a piece of ‘literature’. Give me Conan the Guardian!
3) Adapt one of the better pastiches that may run against the Canonical Timeline but at least it is set in the ‘real’ Hyboria with a proper characterization of Conan. Give me John Maddox Roberts’ Conan the Bold!
4) I’ll settle for one of the better pastiches but it had better fit into the Canonical Timeline or its not Conan to me. Give me Hocking’s Conan and the Emerald Lotus or Moore’s Conan and the Grim Grey God, or don’t bother at all!
5) It has to be based on something written by REH. It’s ok if it’s a El Borak story converted into a Conan story (ala Roy Thomas) but if it doesn’t spring from the mind of Robert E. Howard, I won’t accept it!
6) I’m an REH/Conan purist and the movie MUST be a straight, faithful adaptation of one of REH’s Conan yarns. Queen of the Black Coast or bust!
So where do you fall in the spectrum? I’m sure that most of us on this board would ideally want #6, but what would it take to satisfy you at a minimum?
Kev
What Would It Take To Satisfy You?
Started by Kev, Aug 13 2011 04:58 PM
34 replies to this topic
#1
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Posted 13 August 2011 - 04:58 PM
"Poets always hate those in power. To them perfection is always just behind the last corner, or beyond the next."
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#2
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Posted 13 August 2011 - 05:22 PM
3) Adapt one of the better pastiches that may run against the Canonical Timeline but at least it is set in the ‘real’ Hyboria with a proper characterization of Conan. Give me John Maddox Roberts’ Conan the Bold!
4) I’ll settle for one of the better pastiches but it had better fit into the Canonical Timeline or its not Conan to me. Give me Hocking’s Conan and the Emerald Lotus or Moore’s Conan and the Grim Grey God, or don’t bother at all!
When I set out to start this thread I thought I would fall somewhere around #3. A well told Conan plot set in a 'proper' Hyboria. A setting patterned after real races, times and places as described in the essay Hyborian Genesis. For me only a stage as big as the Hyborian World could contain a character larger-than-life the size of Conan. If they got that much right I would be satisfied.
But the more I pondered the question, the more I find I fall in the camp of 'do no harm'. For me a movie not only needs to be set in the Hyborian World proper (selection #3) but the plot shouldn't contradict anything I know about REH's Conan (selection #4). It's ok to fill in holes in the timeline the way Moore and Hocking did, but don't yank me out of the movie by presenting something that runs against the established timeline. Such as having Conan raised in Stygia as a youth or some such silliness.
As long as Hollywood 'did no harm' to REH's Conan, I believe I would be satisfied with just about any movie made.
Kev
"Poets always hate those in power. To them perfection is always just behind the last corner, or beyond the next."
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#3
guilalah
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Posted 13 August 2011 - 06:41 PM
Just make a good movie.
I'm not saying I wouldn't be tickled if it was authentic to REH; but, as long as the final product is a good film, the makers can take all the liberties they want.
I'm not saying I wouldn't be tickled if it was authentic to REH; but, as long as the final product is a good film, the makers can take all the liberties they want.
#4
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Posted 13 August 2011 - 06:56 PM
I don't particularly agree with your classification system. From my eperience among "Conan fans", I think they fall mainly into two camps, Arnold fans who are not particularly knowledgeable about either the stories or comics and who summarily reject even notion of a Conan film without Arnold, and REH fans who would prefer to see an actual REH adaptation first and foremost. I don't hear a great clamour to see 90s Conan pastiches adapted into film. Maybe you've visited some forums I'm not familiar with. Among the REH fans, the biggest division would be seem to be how faithful a film adaptation of a REH should be while still appealing to the modern filmgoers' sensibilities, and that's been the biggest source of debate on this forum. But I think the vast majority of movie goers fall into neither camp, and will just go to the movie because they're somewhat familiar with the character and they think it looks good. Or not.
What would it take to satisfy me? Since the new film is not an adaptation of a REH story, I already know that I won't be fully satisfied, but I'm hoping that the producers will build upon it's foundation and bring us some genuine adaptations in the future. And hopefully they'll be good, but it's ultimately going to depend on how well this performs. And I think there will be a sequel in no matter how good it performs. Millenium is best know for churning out straight to video crap, and just because it performs badly at the box office, one should still assume that they'll take advantage of their licsensing agreement and milk it for all it's worth. There will be sequels, but it could easily go the Scorpion King 2 route. Hell, even Bloodrayne has managed to produce a sequel. I think among Conan fans some might actually be satisfied to get straight to video adaptations of Red Nails or Tower of the Elephant. I would certainly watch them. Talk about lowered expectations.
What would it take to satisfy me? Since the new film is not an adaptation of a REH story, I already know that I won't be fully satisfied, but I'm hoping that the producers will build upon it's foundation and bring us some genuine adaptations in the future. And hopefully they'll be good, but it's ultimately going to depend on how well this performs. And I think there will be a sequel in no matter how good it performs. Millenium is best know for churning out straight to video crap, and just because it performs badly at the box office, one should still assume that they'll take advantage of their licsensing agreement and milk it for all it's worth. There will be sequels, but it could easily go the Scorpion King 2 route. Hell, even Bloodrayne has managed to produce a sequel. I think among Conan fans some might actually be satisfied to get straight to video adaptations of Red Nails or Tower of the Elephant. I would certainly watch them. Talk about lowered expectations.
Money and muscle, that's what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money won't do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world won't enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it.
--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--
#5
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Posted 13 August 2011 - 09:13 PM
Queen of the Black Coast or bust!
that would look great in the rear window of my LR lol...no secret where I stand then, i dont even need to look through your list of classifications- no offense, but if i want minimum satisfaction i'll crack open a playboy...
Edited by monk, 13 August 2011 - 09:14 PM.
"I live, I BURN WITH LIFE, I love, I slay, and am content."
"Here's to brother Painbrush, we drink to his Shade..."
"All Art Is Martial"- RZA
"Our basic purist premise:
ROBERT E. HOWARD, ENTIRELY ALONE, WITHOUT ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER PERSON, CREATED THE CHARACTER CONAN OF CIMMERIA. NO OTHER PERSON OR PERSONS SHOULD BE INTRUDING THEIR WORK INTO THE VOLUMES OF HOWARD'S CONAN STORIES.
In essence, we believe that the work of any creative artist -- writer, painter, illustrator, musician, what-have-you -- is a unique expression of an artistic point of view. It should not be appropriated or altered by others without the artist's consent. No other writer has Robert E. Howard's unique point of view, and no other writer knows what Howard would have done with his character had he lived. Upon his death, his canon, the expression of his artistic vision, became fixed. Tampering with it now is desecration."
"Here's to brother Painbrush, we drink to his Shade..."
"All Art Is Martial"- RZA
"Our basic purist premise:
ROBERT E. HOWARD, ENTIRELY ALONE, WITHOUT ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER PERSON, CREATED THE CHARACTER CONAN OF CIMMERIA. NO OTHER PERSON OR PERSONS SHOULD BE INTRUDING THEIR WORK INTO THE VOLUMES OF HOWARD'S CONAN STORIES.
In essence, we believe that the work of any creative artist -- writer, painter, illustrator, musician, what-have-you -- is a unique expression of an artistic point of view. It should not be appropriated or altered by others without the artist's consent. No other writer has Robert E. Howard's unique point of view, and no other writer knows what Howard would have done with his character had he lived. Upon his death, his canon, the expression of his artistic vision, became fixed. Tampering with it now is desecration."
#6
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Posted 14 August 2011 - 01:02 AM
I don't particularly agree with your classification system. From my eperience among "Conan fans", I think they fall mainly into two camps, Arnold fans who are not particularly knowledgeable about either the stories or comics and who summarily reject even notion of a Conan film without Arnold, and REH fans who would prefer to see an actual REH adaptation first and foremost. I don't hear a great clamour to see 90s Conan pastiches adapted into film. Maybe you've visited some forums I'm not familiar with. Among the REH fans, the biggest division would be seem to be how faithful a film adaptation of a REH should be while still appealing to the modern filmgoers' sensibilities, and that's been the biggest source of debate on this forum. But I think the vast majority of movie goers fall into neither camp, and will just go to the movie because they're somewhat familiar with the character and they think it looks good. Or not.
Admittedly I took some liberties there with the Levels of Minimal Satisfaction as almost everyone tends to fall in the two camps you outlined (Arnie fans & REH fans) but when those same folks are expressing their opinions they usually discuss what they want not what will at least satisfy them - hence my poor attempt at categorizing the Levels of Minimal Satisfaction.
What would it take to satisfy me? Since the new film is not an adaptation of a REH story, I already know that I won't be fully satisfied, but I'm hoping that the producers will build upon it's foundation and bring us some genuine adaptations in the future. And hopefully they'll be good, but it's ultimately going to depend on how well this performs. And I think there will be a sequel in no matter how good it performs. Millenium is best know for churning out straight to video crap, and just because it performs badly at the box office, one should still assume that they'll take advantage of their licsensing agreement and milk it for all it's worth. There will be sequels, but it could easily go the Scorpion King 2 route. Hell, even Bloodrayne has managed to produce a sequel. I think among Conan fans some might actually be satisfied to get straight to video adaptations of Red Nails or Tower of the Elephant. I would certainly watch them. Talk about lowered expectations.
I'd certainly buy a straight to video adaptation of Red Nails or Tower of the Elephant with the naive, unstoppable hope that maybe, just maybe, they got it right.
"Poets always hate those in power. To them perfection is always just behind the last corner, or beyond the next."
The Phoenix on the Sword
The Phoenix on the Sword
#7
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Posted 14 August 2011 - 01:43 AM
I am a fan of both the Arnie Conan and the REH Conan.
I would have been happy with either a new Arnie Conan the King film OR a direct REH adaption OR Something that contains REH adaptions in it but has maybe a bit of play in between.
Besides a new Arnie film, I would not necessarily mind a pastiche film if we already had some adaptions and the pastiche was true REH's Conan and Hyborean Age which it seems like we are not getting.
I do not understand what is so hard about just adapting a story that the man wrote though.
I would have been happy with either a new Arnie Conan the King film OR a direct REH adaption OR Something that contains REH adaptions in it but has maybe a bit of play in between.
Besides a new Arnie film, I would not necessarily mind a pastiche film if we already had some adaptions and the pastiche was true REH's Conan and Hyborean Age which it seems like we are not getting.
I do not understand what is so hard about just adapting a story that the man wrote though.
#8
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Posted 14 August 2011 - 06:05 AM
To provide me with minimal satisfaction? No odious inventions.
What is an "odious invention"?
Anything that contradicts what REH wrote about the Hyborian world, or Conan's adventures, or Conan's character.
For instance:
Making a sword out of cast iron.
Conan is kidnapped as a child, and spends his entire youth as a slave.
He is taught how to fight by Eastern Masters, from whom he also learns civilized ways.
He does an internship as a pit gladiator, and is coddled and pampered like a champion fighting dog.
When captured by an enemy, he whines and whimpers and grovels and blubbers.
Maximum satisfaction: adapt an actual REH Conan story.
Once they have done that, if the franchise is still alive, then some good pastiches that contain no odious inventions would be ok.
I will be scrutinizing the new movie for odious inventions. I do not regard that as nit-picking.
What is an "odious invention"?
Anything that contradicts what REH wrote about the Hyborian world, or Conan's adventures, or Conan's character.
For instance:
Making a sword out of cast iron.
Conan is kidnapped as a child, and spends his entire youth as a slave.
He is taught how to fight by Eastern Masters, from whom he also learns civilized ways.
He does an internship as a pit gladiator, and is coddled and pampered like a champion fighting dog.
When captured by an enemy, he whines and whimpers and grovels and blubbers.
Maximum satisfaction: adapt an actual REH Conan story.
Once they have done that, if the franchise is still alive, then some good pastiches that contain no odious inventions would be ok.
I will be scrutinizing the new movie for odious inventions. I do not regard that as nit-picking.
Edited by Ironhand, 14 August 2011 - 06:08 AM.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
#9
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Posted 14 August 2011 - 06:42 AM
What would it take to satisfy me?
An actual Conan film, perhaps. Not a chicken-pot Nietzschean pseudo-biography of Genghis Khan with Conan's name slapped on it. Not a big dumb S&S movie with no deeper themes that happens to have a dude named Conan prancing about.
I want to see a Conan film. An actual adaptation derived from the stories and Howard's themes. That's what would satisfy me.
An actual Conan film, perhaps. Not a chicken-pot Nietzschean pseudo-biography of Genghis Khan with Conan's name slapped on it. Not a big dumb S&S movie with no deeper themes that happens to have a dude named Conan prancing about.
I want to see a Conan film. An actual adaptation derived from the stories and Howard's themes. That's what would satisfy me.
"It has fallen upon me, now and again in my sojourns through the world, to ease various evil men of their lives." - Solomon Kane
Comics and artwork:
http://onelastsketch.wordpress.com/
Comics and artwork:
http://onelastsketch.wordpress.com/
#10
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Posted 14 August 2011 - 04:27 PM
Really satisfied? An adaptation of Beyond the Black River. Hah! As if...
Realistically, I think the only way to truly do REH's Conan justice would be to do an HBO-style series with the production and acting qualities of ROME. It could be done, but I don't think the powers that be take Conan that seriously.
Realistically, I think the only way to truly do REH's Conan justice would be to do an HBO-style series with the production and acting qualities of ROME. It could be done, but I don't think the powers that be take Conan that seriously.
#11
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Posted 14 August 2011 - 05:50 PM
I think Ironhand speaks for most of us who were Conan fans before the Arnold movie. Stick to the books. The Howard ones or some of the better non Howards.
#12
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Posted 14 August 2011 - 06:12 PM
I don't know why anyone would bother with choices 2-5.
It's simple: respect the author, respect the yarns, otherwise, why bother?
It's simple: respect the author, respect the yarns, otherwise, why bother?
#13
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Posted 14 August 2011 - 07:33 PM
I don't know why anyone would bother with choices 2-5.
It's simple: respect the author, respect the yarns, otherwise, why bother?
you said it. without that highest level of respect for the source, you have silliness pretending, like a 13yr old taking out 4 picts, one with a inside crescent kick...and other assorted examples of fromage, like this unsavory bit at the end of the red band trailer "when a barbarian feels thirst...it is a thirst for blood..."
"I live, I BURN WITH LIFE, I love, I slay, and am content."
"Here's to brother Painbrush, we drink to his Shade..."
"All Art Is Martial"- RZA
"Our basic purist premise:
ROBERT E. HOWARD, ENTIRELY ALONE, WITHOUT ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER PERSON, CREATED THE CHARACTER CONAN OF CIMMERIA. NO OTHER PERSON OR PERSONS SHOULD BE INTRUDING THEIR WORK INTO THE VOLUMES OF HOWARD'S CONAN STORIES.
In essence, we believe that the work of any creative artist -- writer, painter, illustrator, musician, what-have-you -- is a unique expression of an artistic point of view. It should not be appropriated or altered by others without the artist's consent. No other writer has Robert E. Howard's unique point of view, and no other writer knows what Howard would have done with his character had he lived. Upon his death, his canon, the expression of his artistic vision, became fixed. Tampering with it now is desecration."
"Here's to brother Painbrush, we drink to his Shade..."
"All Art Is Martial"- RZA
"Our basic purist premise:
ROBERT E. HOWARD, ENTIRELY ALONE, WITHOUT ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER PERSON, CREATED THE CHARACTER CONAN OF CIMMERIA. NO OTHER PERSON OR PERSONS SHOULD BE INTRUDING THEIR WORK INTO THE VOLUMES OF HOWARD'S CONAN STORIES.
In essence, we believe that the work of any creative artist -- writer, painter, illustrator, musician, what-have-you -- is a unique expression of an artistic point of view. It should not be appropriated or altered by others without the artist's consent. No other writer has Robert E. Howard's unique point of view, and no other writer knows what Howard would have done with his character had he lived. Upon his death, his canon, the expression of his artistic vision, became fixed. Tampering with it now is desecration."
#14
Ironhand
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Posted 15 August 2011 - 06:06 AM
"when a barbarian feels thirst...it is a thirst for blood..."
It may be stupid, but at least it's not an odious invention.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
#15
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Posted 15 August 2011 - 07:29 AM
Full-throttle, all-pistons-firing Number Six! 
#16
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Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:59 AM
If given a choice I'd go with number 6 - but I'd be satisfied with three and above. However, options 2 and especially 1 can go a certain place.
As long as Conan is portrayed right and the events in the movie are at the very least consistent with/ doesn't contradict the original stories, I'm good.
Sadly, we so far haven't gotten even that
As long as Conan is portrayed right and the events in the movie are at the very least consistent with/ doesn't contradict the original stories, I'm good.
Sadly, we so far haven't gotten even that
Edited by norse_sage, 15 August 2011 - 12:01 PM.
#17
monk
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Posted 15 August 2011 - 12:55 PM
"when a barbarian feels thirst...it is a thirst for blood..."
It may be stupid, but at least it's not an odious invention.
what irritates me about the line most is, corin says a 'cimmerian', then in the fake voice conan says 'barbarian'...
"I live, I BURN WITH LIFE, I love, I slay, and am content."
"Here's to brother Painbrush, we drink to his Shade..."
"All Art Is Martial"- RZA
"Our basic purist premise:
ROBERT E. HOWARD, ENTIRELY ALONE, WITHOUT ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER PERSON, CREATED THE CHARACTER CONAN OF CIMMERIA. NO OTHER PERSON OR PERSONS SHOULD BE INTRUDING THEIR WORK INTO THE VOLUMES OF HOWARD'S CONAN STORIES.
In essence, we believe that the work of any creative artist -- writer, painter, illustrator, musician, what-have-you -- is a unique expression of an artistic point of view. It should not be appropriated or altered by others without the artist's consent. No other writer has Robert E. Howard's unique point of view, and no other writer knows what Howard would have done with his character had he lived. Upon his death, his canon, the expression of his artistic vision, became fixed. Tampering with it now is desecration."
"Here's to brother Painbrush, we drink to his Shade..."
"All Art Is Martial"- RZA
"Our basic purist premise:
ROBERT E. HOWARD, ENTIRELY ALONE, WITHOUT ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER PERSON, CREATED THE CHARACTER CONAN OF CIMMERIA. NO OTHER PERSON OR PERSONS SHOULD BE INTRUDING THEIR WORK INTO THE VOLUMES OF HOWARD'S CONAN STORIES.
In essence, we believe that the work of any creative artist -- writer, painter, illustrator, musician, what-have-you -- is a unique expression of an artistic point of view. It should not be appropriated or altered by others without the artist's consent. No other writer has Robert E. Howard's unique point of view, and no other writer knows what Howard would have done with his character had he lived. Upon his death, his canon, the expression of his artistic vision, became fixed. Tampering with it now is desecration."
#18
Kortoso
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Posted 15 August 2011 - 05:50 PM
I'd even support a BAD adaptation of an original yarn. 
#19
Dark Mark
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Posted 16 August 2011 - 05:01 AM
I go with number 6, deliberately choosing not to adapt Howard’s Conan stories shows a lack of respect and understanding of his writing. I make no secret of my loathing of Conan The Barbarian (1982) for this and many other reasons.
Join me in The Mortuary
#20
ambiente
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Posted 16 August 2011 - 05:54 AM
Please, keep editing! The edit will make the difference!I'd even support a BAD adaptation of an original yarn.
Have hope, Kortoso!
A good man has no fear of darkness. Are you a good man, then?
