1290 replies to this topic

[ambiente]

...
... And I agree with all of the comments that the story was too simple, that there wasn't enough REH in it, that they should have used the original stories...
...

Yes!

...
... The one thing that really brings the whole enterprise down, though, is the story (script, screenplay, whatever): that one gets a big honkin' "F".
...

Yes!

Can we agree that issues with the story were the main fault behind the movie's failure?

(For me, in short, it felt as artificially-put-together as a Luke Lieberman's run of Dynamite's Red Sonja. )

[mario]

Please find any post on this forum where I said that I didn't like Arnold's movie. I've never said that. Let me summarize what I have said, for years, on this forum, in print, etc:

-The movie is not so much REH's worldview as it it Milius' homage to the samuraii films of Kurosawa. As such, the themes run parallel to Howard's themes, and are complimentary, if not exact.

-Arnold is a terrible choice for Conan. He's even more terrible in the second movie. There's exactly ten seconds of the second movie that can be classified as "Howardian."

-Milius and Arnold had a ball working together, but Milius doesn't know anything about REH. That didn't keep him from opening his big fat flapping mouth and spewing out horrible untruths about the author on the Special Edition.

-Despite all of these shortcomings and a bewildering mix of imagery, Conan works as a movie in that big, dumb, way that most other cultural artifacts manage to to. As a time capsule, it takes me right back to my Dungeons and Dragons days, usually in a good way.

-Over time, I've gotten used to the movie and now when I watch it, I tend to mentally sub out the name Conan for Kargor or Craaggon or anything else. Helps keep the bile production down.

There you go.

I thought you were on record strongly disliking the Milius film, I apologize if I was incorrect and appreciate the effort to put your feelings out there. I agree with most of what you write, although I have grown somewhat fond of Arnold's performance -- he's not great, but his physical presence is effective and he manages to carry the film well enough.

If you're detecting a defensiveness among some forumers here, I think it might be due to many years of having insults heaped upon us for daring to praise the 1982 film, which is of course a horrific abomination of all things REH and should be derided at every opportunity if you're a 'real' Conan fan. Then a new film opens which not only mimics the old one in 'non-Howardian' plot points, but is also worse in many essential ways (story, score, action, etc.), and rather than being derided it's actually praised by some of the same people who slammed the '82 film at every opportunity. It's all a bit confusing to us old school Milius fans.

...um Mr. Finn, just out of curiosity, which ten seconds of conan the destroyer did you find to be howardian? the only part i can remotely think may be is when taramis says" queen taramis " and conan responds" not my queen!" but thats a stretch. I'm sure you see the humor in this

[johnnypt]

Well guys, I planned on going to see this tomorrow with the wife so I could finally chime in with an informed opinion....

...and the movie is gone.

Barely a month old and it is nowhere to be seen on any screen in Los Angeles.

We couldn't believe it and went on several different movie sites to confirm. It's not playing anywhere on any screen in New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago. The only theater I was able to find running it is up in Lynnewood, Washington.

Bit of a drive for me. Guess I'll be seeing it on video.

But wow! Harry Potter is still out and that came out in July. Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes, X-Men First Class, Cowboys and Aliens, all of these I have the option of seeing tomorrow - even Pacino's Scarface....but not Conan.

I noticed last weekend it shed around 2/3 of its screens, dropping from around 1700+ to in the 550 ballpark. I take it this weekend the shedding will continue and quite precipitously if it's not on any screen in the big cities. My guess is it'll hit video sometime in November and be on TV possibly as soon as February (I just saw Green Hornet on Starz last night and it was just in the theaters in February, so the old "year later on cable" model is probably changing quickly).

[cherryfunk]

The one thing that really brings the whole enterprise down, though, is the story (script, screenplay, whatever): that one gets a big honkin' "F".

But that's rather the most important element, isn't it? How can one have a good film if the story -- the entire point for the film in the first place -- is terrible? That's like saying such-and-such is a good restaurant, because it has great service, an elegant atmosphere, and a beautiful view of the harbor -- the only quibble is that the food is awful.

[Mark Finn]

But that's rather the most important element, isn't it? How can one have a good film if the story -- the entire point for the film in the first place -- is terrible? That's like saying such-and-such is a good restaurant, because it has great service, an elegant atmosphere, and a beautiful view of the harbor -- the only quibble is that the food is awful.

It's not that big of a stretch in metaphor. That sounds like every convention hotel I've stayed at from 1994 to 2005...

[Mark Finn]

...um Mr. Finn, just out of curiosity, which ten seconds of conan the destroyer did you find to be howardian? the only part i can remotely think may be is when taramis says" queen taramis " and conan responds" not my queen!" but thats a stretch. I'm sure you see the humor in this

It's the sequence where they come upon Grace Jones (Jeez...) and Olivia D'abo says to Conan, it's not Fair, and he says, how do you mean, and she replies, there's five of them and only one of her. And he casually counts, one, two, three...I think you're right. That's cold hearted, right there. But then Conan rides over, cuts her tether, and she says if Conan will let me ride with him, I'll give my life for him (never mind how she knew he was Conan). And he says, "We shall see."

End scene.

That's the most Howardesque, and most Howardian sequence in the whole wretched movie. The rest of the film is like watching someone narrate their last Dungeons and Dragons adventure to you.

[mario]

...um Mr. Finn, just out of curiosity, which ten seconds of conan the destroyer did you find to be howardian? the only part i can remotely think may be is when taramis says" queen taramis " and conan responds" not my queen!" but thats a stretch. I'm sure you see the humor in this

It's the sequence where they come upon Grace Jones (Jeez...) and Olivia D'abo says to Conan, it's not Fair, and he says, how do you mean, and she replies, there's five of them and only one of her. And he casually counts, one, two, three...I think you're right. That's cold hearted, right there. But then Conan rides over, cuts her tether, and she says if Conan will let me ride with him, I'll give my life for him (never mind how she knew he was Conan). And he says, "We shall see."

End scene.

That's the most Howardesque, and most Howardian sequence in the whole wretched movie. The rest of the film is like watching someone narrate their last Dungeons and Dragons adventure to you.

its funny, I was around 7 or8 when tht movie came out and at the time , it was the greatest thing to me. I saw the milius film after that actually then that was the greatest thing to me. I started reading Howard ( tainted by decamp, but thats all there was) god had to be around 15 or 16 (circa 93 ,94) and for a while I couldnt make sense of either movie, especially the destroyer. but like you i saw the samurai /western sort of parrallels and saw some howard aspects in it, and made peace with it, enjoyed it on its own terms.especially when I started reading more howard not just conan and realized milius seemed to draw from various ideas and sources and to me anyway was a sort of amalgamation or love letter to howard. not technically the real deal at all, but its as if he tried to start at the same sort of historical /philosophical foundations Howard did and built his own thing. I see the desroyer in the same sort of perspective as adam wests batman or roger moores james bond.
To touch lightly on this new version of Conan I enjoyed it much the same way i would enjoy a marvel or dark horse, or a mcfarlane action figure or a frazetta painting. its got a b movie sort of vibe and it's really not out to hurt anyone it just wanted the viewer to have a good brutal pulpish time.I do think its high time though like everyone else that Reh's conan gets an REH story onscreen. thanks for the response Mark.

[Kortoso]

...um Mr. Finn, just out of curiosity, which ten seconds of conan the destroyer did you find to be howardian? the only part i can remotely think may be is when taramis says" queen taramis " and conan responds" not my queen!" but thats a stretch. I'm sure you see the humor in this

It's the sequence where they come upon Grace Jones (Jeez...) and Olivia D'abo says to Conan, it's not Fair, and he says, how do you mean, and she replies, there's five of them and only one of her. And he casually counts, one, two, three...I think you're right. That's cold hearted, right there. But then Conan rides over, cuts her tether, and she says if Conan will let me ride with him, I'll give my life for him (never mind how she knew he was Conan). And he says, "We shall see."

End scene.

That's the most Howardesque, and most Howardian sequence in the whole wretched movie. The rest of the film is like watching someone narrate their last Dungeons and Dragons adventure to you.

Eh, they had him count slow - I think - because he was supposed to be s-l-o-w. I liked the scene where he was fighting the boss monster and the lightning was flashing. Frazetta-esque if not Howardesque. Would you like an -esque too?

[Talmet]

the film opened in Brazil, I watched and wrote a review ... I wrote in Portuguese ... leave here ... if someone interested in translating ... in brief ... I felt better than I was expecting

Bom... acho que eu sou um cara mais felizardo que a grande maioria... eu gostei do filme. E acho que o filme só não me deixou mais maravilhado por que de certo momento até o final o filme passou a correr demais... e algumas cenas pareciam totalmente desconexas, sem falar também que foge um tanto quanto ao estilo literário de howard.... enfim... falarei sobre isto mais a frente.

O filme traz uma fotografia do mundo hiboriano que me agradou bastante... as paisagens, os figurinos, uma podridão, sujeira, prostituição e tudo mais que deixasse o clima bem apocalíptico. Da uma certa idéia de mad max medieval. E de certa forma eu sempre encarei a era hiboriana com esta idéia. Só este aspecto já me deixou um tanto quanto entusiasmado.

O Conan interpretado por Momoa aparentar ter a casa de uns 20 anos... é intrépido, falastrão e beberrão... tem sede de sangue, olhar insano e é um cara muito bem decidido no que quer na vida... ou seja... não tem drama particular ou mesmo problemas freudianos... ele não tem dúvidas e pouco se importa com questões filosóficas. Este conan é também muito ágil. A maior parte das lutas de espadas foram muito boas (exceto a ultima). A espada gira na mão de momoa de forma muuuuuuito intima.. até parecia que ela fazia parte do corpo dele. Sinceramente... não me recordo de ter visto um filme em que o personagem manuseasse espadas bárbaras pesadas de forma tão elegante quanto o momoa faz neste filme. E olha que eu assisto muitos filmes de espadas. São cenas que, quando sair o dvd, eu quero ficar vendo e revendo em câmera lenta diversas vezes.... enfim... em diversos pontos este bárbaro do filme é bem mais próximo do conan que eu aprendi a gostar nos quadrinhos do que qualquer outro bárbaro que eu já tenha visto em outros filmes.

A historia é um pastiche dos filme de ação dos anos 80. Totalmente pastiche. Não há tramas e também não há reviravoltas... o que temos na realidade é um “vilão” com suas motivações pessoais de um lado... e um “conan” com suas motivações pessoais do outro... se tem uma diferença moral entre os dois é que o suposto vilão anda por escravizando todo mundo em sua busca pelo poder... e conan anda libertando. rsrsrs É um roteiro extremamente supérfluo que apenas serve de pano de fundo para que eles se confrontem várias vezes. Apesar de ser um típico roteiro que se enquadra na maioria dos filmes de ação de algumas décadas atrás, é exatamente aqui que temos a maior descaracterização dos escritos de howard (e provavelmente o maior mal que o filme pode fazer ao personagem). Os contos de howard era basicamente contos de suspense e mistério e em alguns momentos até com proximidade com terror. Em diversos contos, a trama e tão amarrada a personagens secundários e vilões que por vezes o conan até demora a aparecer... isto é uma forma narrativa que caracterizou os contos de howard... e que simplesmente passou longe deste filme... infelizmente. A historia deste filme não tem trama, não tem suspense, não tem reviravolta e os únicos personagens melhores trabalhados são conan e Kalar Zhym e um pouco Corin e Marrique (gostei desta vilã). Todos os outros demais personagens são bem descartáveis... infelizmente. É uma típica historia de ação dos anos 80... simples assim. Pode talvez até não comprometer o filme como ação... mas compromete na falta de fidelidade à obra de howard.

Sobre a condução da historia, bom, eu achei que tudo ia bem até à cena da caverna (que já era mais da metade do filme).... deste momento em diante, tudo ficou parecendo corrido demais e com cenas costuradas sem muito nexo. Tamara e Conan entram numa caverna... depois tamara ta numa floresta... depois conan numa cidade que se diz ser a cidade dos ladrões (detalhe... não era Shadizar)... e assim por diante... estas cenas foram totalmente desconexas e se conduziu assim até o final do filme. Não sei se foi falta de recurso... ou tempo... ou mesmo qualidade do diretor... mas a sensação que deu foi que no ápice final.... o filme se descontrolou. Rsrsr não de forma que se tornasse impossível de acompanhar... mas perdeu notoriamente a linha de narrativa que vinha assumindo até então.

A luta final sobre a roda também não me agradou tanto quanto as anteriores... pra começar, cenas muito escuras e óculos 3d não são coisas que combinam, muitos cortes rápidos da cena me deixou meio perdido no que estava acontecendo... mas, quando voltaram para terra firme, gostei do modo que marrique é terminada no filme...

A musica está lá apenas com a função de apoiar algumas cenas. Nisto ela até não decepciona... porem, ela não marca e nem sequer possui riffs poderesos. Vc provavelmente não vai se lembrar de nenhuma passagem dela ao sair do cinema.

Bom... depois de todas as críticas... quero deixar bem claro que o filme me surpreendeu muito mais positivamente do que negativamente. Não é o filme que eu gostaria que fosse... mas foi um filme que me divertiu alem do que eu esperava. Eu realmente me senti mergulhado em um mundo de espada e feitiçaria apocalíptico com bárbaros de peito nus gritando e erguendo aos céus suas espadas. Se este filme tivesse outro nome como “Thongor – O bárbaro”, eu provavelmente iria ficar mais admirado com o filme e me perguntando “porque não fazem um filme como este para o cimério?”. Mesmo com todas as falhas que apresentei, achei este o melhor filme do nispel. Sinceramente, ouso a dizer que me parece haver um certo preconceito na critica especializada para com este diretor... o filme não é a merda que estão fazendo parecer...


Fazendo uma compração com outros filmes....

Esta adaptação do personagem para o cinema não me pareceu pior do que as adaptações de:

. Thor
. Wolverine (no filme xmen: origens)
. Hulk (tanto o de 2003 quanto o mais novo)
. homem aranha 1 e 3
. x-men 1 e 3

E blábláblá... claro que isto não significa que o filme seja bom... mas... o que eu to querendo alertar é... em nenhum dos casos acima teve tanta perseguição quanto teve neste do conan...

Talvez isto se deva pelo fato do filme de 82 ter se tornado um cult e ter gerado um padrão de espectativas... alias... por falar no filme de 82 (algo que até então eu não tinha feito).... este novo filme apresenta um conan muito mais perto do conan dos quadrinhos do que o conan de john milius, porém, a obra em si de john milius é uma realização muito melhor elaborada do que a atual em termos de cinema.

[lespaul59]

...um Mr. Finn, just out of curiosity, which ten seconds of conan the destroyer did you find to be howardian? the only part i can remotely think may be is when taramis says" queen taramis " and conan responds" not my queen!" but thats a stretch. I'm sure you see the humor in this

It's the sequence where they come upon Grace Jones (Jeez...) and Olivia D'abo says to Conan, it's not Fair, and he says, how do you mean, and she replies, there's five of them and only one of her. And he casually counts, one, two, three...I think you're right. That's cold hearted, right there. But then Conan rides over, cuts her tether, and she says if Conan will let me ride with him, I'll give my life for him (never mind how she knew he was Conan). And he says, "We shall see."

End scene.

That's the most Howardesque, and most Howardian sequence in the whole wretched movie. The rest of the film is like watching someone narrate their last Dungeons and Dragons adventure to you.

Eh, they had him count slow - I think - because he was supposed to be s-l-o-w. I liked the scene where he was fighting the boss monster and the lightning was flashing. Frazetta-esque if not Howardesque. Would you like an -esque too?

When I was watching CTD on Blu Ray and was watching this scene I was actually think about the compailnts I've saw. I can see why people might not like it but I would say it comes off worse than it should. I think this part is trying to do two which is have Conan question Jehnna and fill in scenen time that would have nothing else happening is the actors didn't drag thier lines out. I think this could have been done better but rather it could have wrote or directed better or even both I'm not sure who to say, they should have done better.

I'm not sure if the noval hurt my opinion or not but there are a few things in the noval I was waiting to see on screen and never saw. I also think they should have used more of the I Live, I burn with life, I love, I slay and am content scene from Queen of the Black Coast because I think it would have been great character devolpment for Conan but would have been way better all the way around that Conan just saying I live I love, I slay and I'm content.

[Mark Finn]

Eh, they had him count slow - I think - because he was supposed to be s-l-o-w. I liked the scene where he was fighting the boss monster and the lightning was flashing. Frazetta-esque if not Howardesque. Would you like an -esque too?

I never interpreted it that way. I always found it speaking directly to the character of Conan. He knows that Grace Jones is going to eventually kill them. So he frees her, not to save her, but to save the men who are tormenting her. To me, that's Conan.


Side note: As bad, as terribly bad as the giant, shaky, slow animatronic snake is in the first Conan movie, it's way better than every single thing that Carlo Rambaldi designed in the second movie. Everything from the man-ape with the rictus-open moouth, to the rubber suited dooky monster they called Dagon. Oh, Lord, I cringe just thinking about it.

[Kortoso]

the film opened in Brazil, I watched and wrote a review ... I wrote in Portuguese ... leave here ... if someone interested in translating ... in brief ... I felt better than I was expecting

Welcome Talmet! Please read the Rules of this Forum before you post any further, particularly this one:
12. Post language:: The Official Robert E. Howard Forums are English-only forums. Posts in other languages may be deleted without notice.

It's up to you to perform the translation if you want to share something.

Thanks!

[Talmet]

Welcome Talmet! Please read the Rules of this Forum before you post any further, particularly this one:
12. Post language:: The Official Robert E. Howard Forums are English-only forums. Posts in other languages may be deleted without notice.

It's up to you to perform the translation if you want to share something.

Thanks!

Thank you for receiving and...
sorry .... had not really read ...
well ... how the text was great ... and my English is bad ... was difficult to translate. You can delete. I apologize for my carelessness.

[Amra_the_Lion]

the film opened in Brazil, I watched and wrote a review ... I wrote in Portuguese ... leave here ... if someone interested in translating ... in brief ... I felt better than I was expecting

Bom... acho que eu sou um cara mais felizardo que a grande maioria... eu gostei do filme. E acho que o filme só não me deixou mais maravilhado por que de certo momento até o final o filme passou a correr demais... e algumas cenas pareciam totalmente desconexas, sem falar também que foge um tanto quanto ao estilo literário de howard.... enfim... falarei sobre isto mais a frente.

Well ... I think that I am a dude happier than the majority ... I liked the film. And I think that the film only did not leave me surprised because at the certain moment until the finale the film lagged a little ... and a few scenes appeared totally disconnected, without speaking also of the fleeing a little bit from the literary style of Howard .... finally ... I will speak about this further on.

O filme traz uma fotografia do mundo hiboriano que me agradou bastante... as paisagens, os figurinos, uma podridão, sujeira, prostituição e tudo mais que deixasse o clima bem apocalíptico. Da uma certa idéia de mad max medieval. E de certa forma eu sempre encarei a era hiboriana com esta idéia. Só este aspecto já me deixou um tanto quanto entusiasmado.

The film brings a picture of the Hyborian world that pleased me immensely ... the landscapes, the costumes, the rot, filth, prostitution and all the things that leave the climate very apocalyptic. It gives certain idea of a medieval Mad Max. AND in some ways I always viewed the Hyborian age with this idea. This was the only aspect that has left me somewhat excited.

O Conan interpretado por Momoa aparentar ter a casa de uns 20 anos... é intrépido, falastrão e beberrão... tem sede de sangue, olhar insano e é um cara muito bem decidido no que quer na vida... ou seja... não tem drama particular ou mesmo problemas freudianos... ele não tem dúvidas e pouco se importa com questões filosóficas. Este conan é também muito ágil. A maior parte das lutas de espadas foram muito boas (exceto a ultima). A espada gira na mão de momoa de forma muuuuuuito intima.. até parecia que ela fazia parte do corpo dele. Sinceramente... não me recordo de ter visto um filme em que o personagem manuseasse espadas bárbaras pesadas de forma tão elegante quanto o momoa faz neste filme. E olha que eu assisto muitos filmes de espadas. São cenas que, quando sair o dvd, eu quero ficar vendo e revendo em câmera lenta diversas vezes.... enfim... em diversos pontos este bárbaro do filme é bem mais próximo do conan que eu aprendi a gostar nos quadrinhos do que qualquer outro bárbaro que eu já tenha visto em outros filmes.

The Conan interpreted by Momoa apparently has about 20 years ... is intrepid, talkative and a drunkard ... has a thirst for blood, looks insane and is a guy determined in life ... or rather... doesn't have particular dramas or freudian problems ... he has no doubts or even philosophical problems. This Conan is also very agile. Most of the sword fights were very good (except the last). The sword turns in the hands of Momoa so very intimately.. until it seemed that it was part of the body. Sincerely ... I do not recall having seen a film in which the person manipulated heavy barbarian swords so elegantly as Momoa does in this film. AND look, I have watched many sword films. There are scenes that, when the DVD comes out, I want to watch and re-watch in slow motion ... finally ... in several points this barbarian from the movie is much closer to Conan that I learned to appreciate in comics than any other barbarian that I have seen in other films.

There are a few paragraphs translated for Talmet, so you can see his point, before I got bored, besides my Portuguese is pretty rusty.

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 19 September 2011 - 10:37 PM.

[indestructibleman]

The one thing that really brings the whole enterprise down, though, is the story (script, screenplay, whatever): that one gets a big honkin' "F".

But that's rather the most important element, isn't it? How can one have a good film if the story -- the entire point for the film in the first place -- is terrible? That's like saying such-and-such is a good restaurant, because it has great service, an elegant atmosphere, and a beautiful view of the harbor -- the only quibble is that the food is awful.

it's more like a restaurant where the appetizers and dessert are fantastic but the main course is bland. story is only one element, it's an important one but it's not everything.

Edited by indestructibleman, 28 September 2011 - 06:44 PM.

[guilalah]

The one thing that really brings the whole enterprise down, though, is the story (script, screenplay, whatever): that one gets a big honkin' "F".

But that's rather the most important element, isn't it? How can one have a good film if the story -- the entire point for the film in the first place -- is terrible? That's like saying such-and-such is a good restaurant, because it has great service, an elegant atmosphere, and a beautiful view of the harbor -- the only quibble is that the food is awful.

it's more like a restaurant where the appetizers and dessert are fantastic but the main course is bland. story is only one element, it's an important one but it's not everything.

Aristotle gave the 'action' pride of place in ranking the elements of tragedy; next 'character', then 'thought' ... after 'diction' and 'music', 'spectacle' ranked last. However, I do not think it can be presumed that this ordering necessarily applies for films; no doubt in some films 'action'/'plot'/'story' is the most important element; but in other films other elements can be what is most important. In some films spectacle (by which I mean broadly visual beauty) and music are the most important elements.

[stonecold-mike]

From Michael J. Bassett: http://michaeljbassett.wordpress.com/

"Though I’d love to take a crack at Conan and I don’t want to insult the people who made the new one but it wasn’t great and I could do better for a smaller budget."

Hmmm? How cool if Bassett would lobby for a Conan sequel!! One can dream.

[Waldgeist]

From Michael J. Bassett: http://michaeljbassett.wordpress.com/

"Though I’d love to take a crack at Conan and I don’t want to insult the people who made the new one but it wasn’t great and I could do better for a smaller budget."

Hmmm? How cool if Bassett would lobby for a Conan sequel!! One can dream.

I second that. I loved Solomon Kane and I think Michael could do great things with/for Conan.

[guilalah]

Well, I decided not to see CtB 2011 a second time in a theatre .... when it's out on dvd I'll watch it and take notes.

[cherryfunk]

no doubt in some films 'action'/'plot'/'story' is the most important element; but in other films other elements can be what is most important. In some films spectacle (by which I mean broadly visual beauty) and music are the most important elements.

Yes, they're called music videos. Is that was Conan was supposed to be?