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Conan By Brian Wood And Becky Cloonan *(JUST the Cloonan run)


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#481 Arcadian

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:35 AM

Oh man, you can't say "no one can deny it" on the internet. Its a self-refuting assertion.

#482 Arcadian

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:41 AM

Oh, and to address something else I saw either in this thread or another, don't be surprised if sales on our #1 more than double the previous month's issue (ROK #12) and double PotS #1.

b


I would be surprised, and happily surprised at that. I would have predicted about 15k based upon past trends. Also I wonder if some of the non-traditional consumers might be more of the wait-for-the-trade types. It looks like the numbers for the other comics are:

ROK #12: 10,727
POTS #1: 11,338

(per ComicsBeat)

#483 JainkhulTamhair

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 01:22 AM

Oh man, you can't say "no one can deny it" on the internet. Its a self-refuting assertion.

and that which you just said right now, Arcadian, could you state that "no one can deny it" ? ;)
No one can really be objective when comparing two drawings, personal tastes always interfere, sometimes heavily, as in Zack's case.

#484 ZackDavisson

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 01:33 AM

I deny everything both of you just said.

Personal taste isn't the issue in my case Jainkhul. Just knowledge and experience. Like I said before, I lived in Japan for seven years, and I have first-hand knowledge of the breadth and range of Japanese comics which far exceeds American comics. There are so many different genres and styles.

When you say things like "In many mangas, when a character is out of line, disturbed, asks himself a serious question, sweats from guilt or anything similar, many (not all , but a majority of) ..." or "There are some (rare) mangas which are well drawn and not cliches ..." I have to point out that this just isn't true.

There isn't really even such a thing as manga. That term is an American invention. "Manga" just means "comics" in Japanese. If you are speaking Japanese, then this issue of Conan is "manga." So are "The Avengers." So is "Garfield." This whole idea of a"manga style" or "manga-esque" is just not real.

I wrote a column on this subject once. Give it a read:

http://www.comicsbul...comics-vs-manga


So if you want to make complaints about the art, or things you don't like about it, that is fair. But your comparissons to Japanese comics are ill-informed. It isn't a matter of objectivity or opinion. Just a matter of truth.

#485 JainkhulTamhair

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:00 AM


The Japanese people are big fans of K-1 fighting and Sumo. They love giant muscle types


"Love" ? Read the most successful mangas in the trade ...today (not those of the 80's-90's) : the male heroes often correspond to BISHOUNEN standards (effeminate twerps)
I wonder if you've been attending so many K-1 events in Japan when you were over there that it made you completely forget that a very substantial part of the japanese manga fans prefer the visual kei music and characters.
"Big guys" as you coin them well are often stereotypes (as japanese love stereotypes) of americans and other gaijins, invited in talk shows and other games. The real heroes that make them dream are not muscular giants as Andre the Giant.
Well apart from those who played World Heroes on Neogeo , who read Hokuto no Ken and who have Sumo posters all over their room. Bishounen heroes now have superseeded most of the "big guy" heroes, look at the videogames, the animes, US and euro comicbooks which reeks of bishonen, visual kei and other stupidities.

My personal opinion is that Cloonan wanted to give a bishounen aspect to Conan (pretty, slim and young), with a yaoi flavor (Cloonan stated that Conan's male sidekicks "probably had crushes on him" ).
Will you deny that as well? I mean , try that out on spiderman, deadpool, Tintin, whatever, but not on ..Conan!! He doesn't deserve that terrible treatment. Methinks she kind of realized she had to adapt to our (us, the majority of Conan comics fans) more classic (Buscema, Nord, Alcala, Giorello etc) tastes in issue #2.


I deny it, in that I have no idea what you are talking about. What are you talking about?

Well I'm talking about the bottom left corner in the picture, where some character which I do not know (since I don't read crap like "Bleach" , is drawn in a way that resembles how Belit was drawn by Cloonan in the panels where Conan sees her as some bloodthirsty creature with eyes aflame . I see manga influence where you don't, oddly.

You seem to have some serious issues (combined with lack of knowledge) with Japanese comics, that you are allowing to affect your judgment. Becky's style is not "manga-esque" at all.


everyone who doesn't agree with otakus, wapanese and the sort are simply ignorants....that's a bit hard isn't it? ;)
I thought you were a reasonable manga fan, not someone who'd defend the bishounen treatement of Conan saying it is not inspired by mangas (especially after Cloonan's statements and previews)
Don't worry for me, I have the sufficient knowledge of comics, euro comics , mangas and japanese culture. I just do not agree with the bishounen almost yaoi trend in the comics and videogame industry. I find it simply stupid .

To say Cloonen 's style is "not manga esque at all" shows either ignorance from your part, or a drastic refutal of the truth. I'd opt for the second possibility since you've live in Japan.
I showed the preview panels to some friends, some of which are avid manga fans and they completely disagree with your strange statement. The non manga fans didn't see the influence because they didn't know their you know what from their elbow in mangas (as opposed to the other buddies) but found Conan to be depicted in a rather unusual effeminate way, and noted some "independant comic" / "euro comics" influence... (last point which I agree with too)

Look at Cloonan's other non-Conan releases and come back tell me if you don't see any manga influence, if you have a doubt, seriously!

#486 emerald

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:18 AM

Agh, this argument is as loud and verbose as it is useless and repetitious.
And it's eating a thread in which we were actually communicating with a current author of Conan.

Can you please take it elsewhere?

#487 JainkhulTamhair

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:25 AM

Agh, this argument is as loud and verbose as it is useless and repetitious.
And it's eating a thread in which we were actually communicating with a current author of Conan.

Can you please take it elsewhere?


Well if you like Conan's new style, good for you, but from what I've understood, we're not only talking about Wood's literary adaptation, but Cloonan's graphic vision as well, and the latest news is that many fans including me aren't so hot about it. Did you read the entire thread from the beginning?
Speaking of "loud and verbose" if you simply say "I'm not really into the new QOTBC" or simply refusing to buy the comics while remaining silent, don't think Dark Horse will do something about it, because these companies need feedback and fans need to give out their reasons.

Edited by JainkhulTamhair, 03 March 2012 - 02:30 AM.


#488 monk

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:57 AM

A preview of Conan The Barbarian #2: http://www.comicbook...review&id=11614

b


i love the scene where he shuts his eyes and lets fly...

Edited by monk, 03 March 2012 - 09:04 AM.

"I live, I BURN WITH LIFE, I love, I slay, and am content."
"Here's to brother Painbrush, we drink to his Shade..."
"All Art Is Martial"- RZA

"Our basic purist premise:
ROBERT E. HOWARD, ENTIRELY ALONE, WITHOUT ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER PERSON, CREATED THE CHARACTER CONAN OF CIMMERIA. NO OTHER PERSON OR PERSONS SHOULD BE INTRUDING THEIR WORK INTO THE VOLUMES OF HOWARD'S CONAN STORIES.
In essence, we believe that the work of any creative artist -- writer, painter, illustrator, musician, what-have-you -- is a unique expression of an artistic point of view. It should not be appropriated or altered by others without the artist's consent. No other writer has Robert E. Howard's unique point of view, and no other writer knows what Howard would have done with his character had he lived. Upon his death, his canon, the expression of his artistic vision, became fixed. Tampering with it now is desecration."

#489 monk

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:12 AM

actually there are more than a few panels in no1 in which Conan is not in a position of dominating the scene he is in. in more than a few, he looks downright diminutive. in the courtroom scene, conan is flanked by two guards, both of whom are drawn taller than him, although I think there she hits his weight/mass. Then you have some really really really nice touches here and there which cloonan puts in- like the characters sweating. tito is sometimes drawn taller and in many panels he is above conan.

I think most people are simply saying, no roided meathead, but no handsome twilight waif lead singer of all american rejects either. just get the character "right" and a lot would just fall into place. you can't have an character's creator say the character is scarred and dark, sinister, etc., and then have an artist say he's handsome and man crush and call that 'negativity.' it's critical, yes, but it's not negative for the sake of just being nags.
"I live, I BURN WITH LIFE, I love, I slay, and am content."
"Here's to brother Painbrush, we drink to his Shade..."
"All Art Is Martial"- RZA

"Our basic purist premise:
ROBERT E. HOWARD, ENTIRELY ALONE, WITHOUT ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER PERSON, CREATED THE CHARACTER CONAN OF CIMMERIA. NO OTHER PERSON OR PERSONS SHOULD BE INTRUDING THEIR WORK INTO THE VOLUMES OF HOWARD'S CONAN STORIES.
In essence, we believe that the work of any creative artist -- writer, painter, illustrator, musician, what-have-you -- is a unique expression of an artistic point of view. It should not be appropriated or altered by others without the artist's consent. No other writer has Robert E. Howard's unique point of view, and no other writer knows what Howard would have done with his character had he lived. Upon his death, his canon, the expression of his artistic vision, became fixed. Tampering with it now is desecration."

#490 Slashing Sword

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:23 AM


A preview of Conan The Barbarian #2: http://www.comicbook...review&id=11614

b


Pretty awesome stuff. I don't understand the first page, though.

I think it is a continuation of Conan's thoughts... the next page onwards shows the reality and the ships are still quite far apart. Just my 2 cents :)

Edited by Slashing Sword, 03 March 2012 - 10:24 AM.


#491 Slashing Sword

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:28 AM

I still don't like the art but that's just me... not my preference. I prefer Buscema or Giorello type of art. Cary Nord was pretty good too without depicting a body builder and without being too detailed. Never liked Barry Smith's version also.

#492 mikoza

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 11:42 AM

Milo Manara and his recognizable depictions of women...

Posted ImagePosted Image

...and bad (at least for me) copy of his work by Becky Cloonan,...

Posted ImagePosted Image

One more thing I must say is that her "Adrien Brody mixed with Japanese comics' influence" version of Conan is a totally wrong style for this type of a comic character for me.
On the other hand, my impression is that Mr. Wood's writing has softened Conan's character considerably (I don't like the way he speaks and acts).

Edited by mikoza, 03 March 2012 - 11:59 AM.


#493 JainkhulTamhair

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:51 PM

I deny everything both of you just said.

Personal taste isn't the issue in my case Jainkhul. Just knowledge and experience. Like I said before, I lived in Japan for seven years, and I have first-hand knowledge of the breadth and range of Japanese comics which far exceeds American comics. There are so many different genres and styles.

When you say things like "In many mangas, when a character is out of line, disturbed, asks himself a serious question, sweats from guilt or anything similar, many (not all , but a majority of) ..." or "There are some (rare) mangas which are well drawn and not cliches ..." I have to point out that this just isn't true.

There isn't really even such a thing as manga. That term is an American invention. "Manga" just means "comics" in Japanese. If you are speaking Japanese, then this issue of Conan is "manga." So are "The Avengers." So is "Garfield." This whole idea of a"manga style" or "manga-esque" is just not real.

I wrote a column on this subject once. Give it a read:

http://www.comicsbul...comics-vs-manga


So if you want to make complaints about the art, or things you don't like about it, that is fair. But your comparissons to Japanese comics are ill-informed. It isn't a matter of objectivity or opinion. Just a matter of truth.


So because you have a blog, you esteem that it entitles you to always offer the truth to your visitors...
don't speak of knowledge to me, my US, euro and japanese comics collection speaks for itself, and who tells you that I haven't learned japanese before as well.
Citing Garfield is out of topic, it is a cartoonesque US that has nothing in common with hat we're talking about.

Imagine one day Dark Horse gives us a PotBO (to pick randomly one REH story to be adapted) version with all characters depicted as if in Asterix (then having strong belgic influence) , with big noses, cartoonesque bodies and the lot, then some self proclaimed know it all comes along and says that euro comics have nothing to do with it, that big noses are not a trademark, citing Tintin as a small nosed charcater and Enki Bilal's art as example of non caricatural art, avoiding carefully to disclose to the forum members that specific franco-belgic caricatural-cartoonesque styles exists ,are recongnized and are each ridden with fan acclaimed clichés , for example Spirou, Smurfs, Asterix, Iznogoud have all same clichés while Tintin and Blake & Mortimer are another style etc etc.

That's exactly what you're doing but with japanese comics instead, you choose to deny everything I say because it suits you, and what I say is that Cloonan's style is very manga-esque and euro comics-esque to a lesser degree.

Other fans have a similar opinion as the one I formulated so many times to you, look at Mikoza's very cunning comparison where he puts side by side Manara's erotic female hero with Belit. He too compares it with japanese style.

Edited by JainkhulTamhair, 03 March 2012 - 02:53 PM.


#494 JainkhulTamhair

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 03:27 PM

Milo Manara and his recognizable depictions of women...

...and bad (at least for me) copy of his work by Becky Cloonan,...

One more thing I must say is that her "Adrien Brody mixed with Japanese comics' influence" version of Conan is a totally wrong style for this type of a comic character for me.
On the other hand, my impression is that Mr. Wood's writing has softened Conan's character considerably (I don't like the way he speaks and acts).


To sum up our views, I'd put it this way:
(the first b&w panel is from a japanese comics)

Posted Image



Mikoza, have you noticed also the similarities with Thorgal comics (euro comics), especially for Conan's depictin by Cloonan? I find them striking.
I stressed the point enough that Conan's face and eyes were rendered as a bishounen japanese character
Posted Image


, but Conan's general portrayal by Cloonan seems like a watered down, simplified, feminized Thorgal:

Thorgal (art by Rosinski) :
Posted ImagePosted Image

Cloonan's preview
Posted Image

Edited by JainkhulTamhair, 03 March 2012 - 03:37 PM.


#495 mikoza

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:35 PM

Conan's face and eyes were rendered as a bishounen japanese character


Agree, influence is obvious, and I repeat: This is not right style for Conan comic. For some other genres or characters maybe, but for Conan...definitely not. And, as many before me pointed out, this visual experiment on Conan is better suited for some pastiche story. Not for QotBC adaptation.

Conan's general portrayal by Cloonan seems like a watered down, simplified, feminized Thorgal


You know, for me Thorgal is visually watered down and simplified Conan (Hats off to master Rosinski), so you can imagine how I feel about Cloonan's version :wacko: :angry: . I noticed another fairly important thing in her drawings (at least, for Conan)...Ms. Cloonan without doubt don't know how to draw muscles.

#496 Dave the Rage

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:45 PM

I tend to think that this dicussion on manga and Cloonan style is absolutely bunkers to say the least guys. All art is interpretive in a sense that it has a message to tell, weather from East or West. I personally have been reading Conan all my life practically. I have seen it go from artist to artist and they bring their own style and all artists have been influenced by other artist across the globe since the smaller world became a reality with the internet! If Cloonan has been influenced by Eastern style, I couldnt care less, as I have seen great artist start off weakly and turn out good standard of Conan artork as they progressed. I believe even BWS had a patchy start before doing some amazing art pieces on Conan like these below:

Link 1

Some of his work could be termed mangaish in style?

link 2

I for one like Cloonan's portrayal so far and can't wait to see how she progresses doing Conan in the future. The reason for me to think this is looking at Monks link for the 2nd comic. Man that looks well, especially the arrow scene as Monk mentioned earlier. My favourite panel is his eyes were wide open ready to let loose the arrow into the bitches heart, Cloonan made sure that she left little black pupils to be covered by fantastic BLUE EYES, as the dam film should have had!! ;)

So fo me, all art has similarities in a smaller world. Every bloody superhero artist today learned everything from Buscema book How to Draw comics, my friends are so similar to John's art it is becoming the norm, and that's why you want your Conan like that....because it is the norm. Normal makes you feel safe and feeling safe makes you hate the other styles.......

Edited by Dave the Rage, 04 March 2012 - 11:49 PM.

?I do not accept as matter of belief certain things in this history, or rather fiction; for some things are diabolical superstitions, some are poetical inventions, some have the semblance of truth, some have not; and some are meant for the entertainment of fools.? Book of Leinster ? 12th century

#497 warrior900

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 12:10 AM

Cloonan's Conan would`nt scare or intimidate a child let alone grown men, he looks rather weak and ordinary. YUCK
He stood like an image of the unconquerable primordial ? legs braced far apart, head thrust forward, one hand clutching the wall for support, the other gripping the ax on high, with the great corded muscles standing out in iron ridges, and his features frozen in a death snarl of fury ? his eyes blazing?? ? The Phoenix on the Sword, REH

#498 Dave the Rage

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 02:45 AM

YEah, like Bruce Lee weak and ordinary sized man, tst. Skill and courage make the man not muscle and abs. Cloonans Conan has depth and a mixture of youth and newness that I can take too. Gimme more of this, than steroidal freak show Conan with no intellect anyday! :)

And each to their own.
?I do not accept as matter of belief certain things in this history, or rather fiction; for some things are diabolical superstitions, some are poetical inventions, some have the semblance of truth, some have not; and some are meant for the entertainment of fools.? Book of Leinster ? 12th century

#499 Dave the Rage

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 02:52 AM

Conan fans are pretty generic as my daughter pointed out to me the other day. Wearing Tshirts of muscle bound Conan with his sword slashing a few silly idiots and a chick at his ankles. What a message to send out to the masses. What about a Conan that gives a weapon to the woman and says fight like a Cimmerian woman and prove your worth, in this world we either fight or die, that is Hyboria and such is life. Cloonan stepped up and took the sword and the weak assed men that dont like her style throw derision and manga at her from afar....I salute you sword woman as REH would have done with a Texan smile and a tip of his hat! ;)

(Yes I have had a few hiccup!)
?I do not accept as matter of belief certain things in this history, or rather fiction; for some things are diabolical superstitions, some are poetical inventions, some have the semblance of truth, some have not; and some are meant for the entertainment of fools.? Book of Leinster ? 12th century

#500 JainkhulTamhair

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 04:28 AM

Conan fans are pretty generic as my daughter pointed out to me the other day. Wearing Tshirts of muscle bound Conan with his sword slashing a few silly idiots and a chick at his ankles. What a message to send out to the masses. What about a Conan that gives a weapon to the woman and says fight like a Cimmerian woman and prove your worth, in this world we either fight or die, that is Hyboria and such is life. Cloonan stepped up and took the sword and the weak assed men that dont like her style throw derision and manga at her from afar....I salute you sword woman as REH would have done with a Texan smile and a tip of his hat! ;)

(Yes I have had a few hiccup!)


I don't see any Conan fan saying a girl shouldn't draw Conan comics. You've imagined that entirely, Dave! Cloonan has a certain talent but she seems to follow modern "tastes" which are not unanimously appreciated (to say the least) when depicting Conan and his world. Her style would be more appreciated in other Dark Horse series for sure.