693 replies to this topic

[Aquilonia]

I really don`t care if Wood strays a little bit away from the original. Not at all. The most important thing, and sometimes this is even more important then being loyal to Howard, is that the story must be convincing and deep, should I say that.
That is what matters the most to me.
Conan with a hair knot does not bother me neither. Who knows what types of hair styles Conan used during his life? I buy that, it is a new take on the character, I think.
Up to this point there is not a single thing that I feel has compromised the story.
In fact, I`d say keep the pace, guys!

[monk]

Well the important thing is the story was already engaging and deep and if the deviations allow for plot holes however minor why is that a good thing?

I maintain there isn't an either or. One can be faithful and deep and engaging...so far I think the second set of deviations with the dream sequence were about a zillion times more successful than the intro deviation.

[monk]

Shed the poetry too.

[monk]

I really don`t care if Wood strays a little bit away from the original. Not at all. The most important thing, and sometimes this is even more important then being loyal to Howard, is that the story must be convincing and deep, should I say that.
That is what matters the most to me.
Conan with a hair knot does not bother me neither. Who knows what types of hair styles Conan used during his life? I buy that, it is a new take on the character, I think.
Up to this point there is not a single thing that I feel has compromised the story.
In fact, I`d say keep the pace, guys!

he actually strayed a lot. I mean, A LOT. I just re read QotBC, and no 1. almost the whole story has been shifted in this retell. it's like a game of telephone has been played, where howard is the start and then 10 retells later wood types out what he thinks he heard from caller 9.

There are more than a few changes. I just think everything wood is trying to do, could have been done with pretty much the same effect without all the deviations. the changes don't add anything, and I don't see why a new audience who wouldn't know better anyway would prefer the deviated...if you can answer that solidly I'll be 100% eating crow.

from a couple of the northlanders comics I've just read, I would have thought that Wood's skill would be about absorbing source material, then bringing it back out with a strength...using that absorption to inform so to speak. howard left plenty of room to do that, and it would have been fresh and respectful.

i also just finished off RoK and am really confused. There seems a pretty big break in continuity, where are DH's editors?

[johnnypt]

i also just finished off RoK and am really confused. There seems a pretty big break in continuity, where are DH's editors?

That's part of the issue. It was up to the editor to say "You know, he should be wearing a helmet" or fix the name of the tavern. These are the same kind of issues that popped up in the Solomon Kane and Kull minis, so it wouldn't be unique to this series. Now I've thought about the possibility that these may not be "mistakes", that something else may be going on. We're not going to know until #25 in that case. On its face, it sure looks like they could've told the story they wanted to tell, still fixed these few things and nothing would've changed at all. I'm withholding judgement on that point until the series ends. Looking forward to issue #2 and see more of the direction they plan on taking.

[monk]

well, why not build on thomas's having made ivanos the friend who conan wouldn't rat out...that's the kind of tweak or deviation that you can't really complain about, it makes the story a little richer. but then thomas did have conan in the "clink" which is also a major deviation from QotBC....maybe that's where the train went a bit off the tracks?

I dunno. Just doesn't make much sense to muck about with something that's pretty damn near perfect.

[amster]

I really don`t care if Wood strays a little bit away from the original. Not at all. The most important thing, and sometimes this is even more important then being loyal to Howard, is that the story must be convincing and deep, should I say that.
That is what matters the most to me.
Conan with a hair knot does not bother me neither. Who knows what types of hair styles Conan used during his life? I buy that, it is a new take on the character, I think.
Up to this point there is not a single thing that I feel has compromised the story.
In fact, I`d say keep the pace, guys!

he actually strayed a lot. I mean, A LOT. I just re read QotBC, and no 1. almost the whole story has been shifted in this retell. it's like a game of telephone has been played, where howard is the start and then 10 retells later wood types out what he thinks he heard from caller 9.

There are more than a few changes. I just think everything wood is trying to do, could have been done with pretty much the same effect without all the deviations. the changes don't add anything, and I don't see why a new audience who wouldn't know better anyway would prefer the deviated...if you can answer that solidly I'll be 100% eating crow.

Maybe it's because Wood was hired to write, not merely copy and paste Howard's words into cartoon bubbles. After I finished the comic (for about the 5th or sixth time), I went back and read the Thomas/Buscema version, and (surprise) it sort of felt flat to me. It was basically just Howard's words with the verbs changed from past to present tense, and Buscema's artwork. It's good and all, it's a classic, but it's already been done. You assert that it could be "just as good" without all the deviations. On what basis do you make such an assumption? If he had stuck more literally (I don't think the word faithfully applies in this case at all) to the source material as Howard wrote it, he wouldn't have had to put as much of his own creative input into it. There's an old saying: when two people agree on everything, only one of them is doing the actual thinking.

[monk]

it's an adaptation, first and foremost. plus, he's got what, over 20 issues in which his chops can shine. a thin argument could be mounted i suppose in saying this is supposed to attract new readers to the book, but again, any material is new to new readers unfamiliar with conan, and it doesn't get any better than howard, so you should want to start with your best foot forward anyway.

so there's no need to switch out the dialogue for one, introduce anachronistic words like 'clink', break continuity with the ROK story which is supposed to lead us to this, and if you can point out what is so superior about the changes made from the original, be my guest. I don't see what is so much better, mucking around with the exposition, the dialogue, changing conan into a lightweight, changing the rising tension/action when Conan hits the deck...

the dream sequence is perfect example- it's great storytelling and not original, but it is made to fit. it's great. why can't it just be like that, keep what is there that is already genius and then add your touches. this is where the book needs a strong editor who can guide the creative process and stop what is simply gratuitous.

so that being said, there is a lot of room for wood's creativity to shine through. northlanders proves- at least to me- that he could do it while being faithful to source material.

as far as it having all been done, we can say that about the entire DH run. But I think we both know there is merit in seeing DH take up the Conan stories. The art alone provides enough meat on the bone for cromrades to sink their teeth into. that is like saying frazetta already painted FGD so, no need for anyone else to do that...

I love Cloonan's take on Belit for example, she nailed that pretty good, there are some other interesting touches as well. It shouldn't be too much though to have asked her to torque up her sketches and give us a more accurate Conan and not the latte sipping waif who looks like a wave could dash him overboard, much less soak a ship in the blood of it's crew. And maybe she'll get there in a few more issues.

[amster]

The way i see it, it's not a question of "if it's not better than the original, just keep it the way it is". I'm starting to think that that's a rather lazy argument because people just want to see it exactly how Howard wrote it. I mean who's to say which is "better?" It depends on who you ask. It may certainly be better that way to die-hard Howard fans, and have little appeal to anyone else. The Del Rey's have been on the shelves for 10 years, and we've had ten years of faithful adaptations that are practically the REH stories verbatum. Practically the only thing that truly seperates them from the Savage Sword volumes is the artwork. I think it's time to take the character forward rather than sitting in park. Truman's adaptations were excellent, but what I really found interesting was Free Companions, where he took clues from between the stories and added some much needed character development. Then, we had RoK, which in my opinion was a major step backward. And the Wood comic finally opened my eyes to the idea that much more can be done with this material rather than just slavish imitations of the original Howard stories. For the first time I'm waiting on the next installment of a Conan story that I've read dozens of times, and I don't know what's going to happen. That's pretty exciting.

[Aquilonia]

The way i see it, it's not a question of "if it's not better than the original, just keep it the way it is". I'm starting to think that that's a rather lazy argument because people just want to see it exactly how Howard wrote it. I mean who's to say which is "better?" It depends on who you ask. It may certainly be better that way to die-hard Howard fans, and have little appeal to anyone else. The Del Rey's have been on the shelves for 10 years, and we've had ten years of faithful adaptations that are practically the REH stories verbatum. Practically the only thing that truly seperates them from the Savage Sword volumes is the artwork. I think it's time to take the character forward rather than sitting in park. Truman's adaptations were excellent, but what I really found interesting was Free Companions, where he took clues from between the stories and added some much needed character development. Then, we had RoK, which in my opinion was a major step backward. And the Wood comic finally opened my eyes to the idea that much more can be done with this material rather than just slavish imitations of the original Howard stories. For the first time I'm waiting on the next installment of a Conan story that I've read dozens of times, and I don't know what's going to happen. That's pretty exciting.

That is exactly what I think.

[Dave the Rage]

I really don`t care if Wood strays a little bit away from the original. Not at all. The most important thing, and sometimes this is even more important then being loyal to Howard, is that the story must be convincing and deep, should I say that.
That is what matters the most to me.
Conan with a hair knot does not bother me neither. Who knows what types of hair styles Conan used during his life? I buy that, it is a new take on the character, I think.
Up to this point there is not a single thing that I feel has compromised the story.
In fact, I`d say keep the pace, guys!

he actually strayed a lot. I mean, A LOT. I just re read QotBC, and no 1. almost the whole story has been shifted in this retell. it's like a game of telephone has been played, where howard is the start and then 10 retells later wood types out what he thinks he heard from caller 9.

There are more than a few changes. I just think everything wood is trying to do, could have been done with pretty much the same effect without all the deviations. the changes don't add anything, and I don't see why a new audience who wouldn't know better anyway would prefer the deviated...if you can answer that solidly I'll be 100% eating crow.

from a couple of the northlanders comics I've just read, I would have thought that Wood's skill would be about absorbing source material, then bringing it back out with a strength...using that absorption to inform so to speak. howard left plenty of room to do that, and it would have been fresh and respectful.

i also just finished off RoK and am really confused. There seems a pretty big break in continuity, where are DH's editors?

I can't really tell if this is straying a little to walking a mile away from the original tale. It is just 1 comic so far of of 1 chapter of Howard's original tale. I think woods is building is own start as any writer does in pastiching the stories. I think we'll get more from the coming issues in the run to gripe about or not.

Though in saying that, I would loved to have seen in the court room expanded with the trail and judges etc, and Conan having to argue with the senseless questions! I can't believe any writer would want to miss that opportunity when doing QotBC story. Unless Woods reads this and does a flash back for Belit when Conan tells her the tale and they can do it as Belit amagining her great prince battling the civilised folk, he could also tie in where the cloak and armour came back from in his escape as he was declothed in the opening sequence in court?

On defence of the artist mistakes in continuity of art, it is hard sometimes to remember everything you are reading from script. I have had to on a few scripts to go back and add and fix mistakes on my part. Then again, Cloonan is a professional and needs to up the game to keep control of the little mistakes as Conan acquiring his armour, or Woods making sure he keeps the artist abreasted of these things.

Edited by Dave the Rage, 22 February 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[Dave the Rage]

I thought that they were going to take Howards QotBC and add bits in throughout the tale, keeping with REH words and angles and filling in the holes as they expand the story into various arcs. I think they may do that no doubt but at the expense of Howards tale it seems, which is a shame in my eyes. I think you can pastiche and dip into Howard at the same time? Am I wrong on this? Has this not been used in the past when telling Conan's story in the Marvel universe by Thomas? Maybe Woods wants to build his own universe and angles and arcs, which is no bad thing as Aquilonia has said, but he needs to watch the boat does not drift too far of shore and we loose sight of the path he is taking us!

Edited by Dave the Rage, 22 February 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[monk]

The way i see it, it's not a question of "if it's not better than the original, just keep it the way it is". I'm starting to think that that's a rather lazy argument because people just want to see it exactly how Howard wrote it. I mean who's to say which is "better?" It depends on who you ask. It may certainly be better that way to die-hard Howard fans, and have little appeal to anyone else. The Del Rey's have been on the shelves for 10 years, and we've had ten years of faithful adaptations that are practically the REH stories verbatum. Practically the only thing that truly seperates them from the Savage Sword volumes is the artwork. I think it's time to take the character forward rather than sitting in park. Truman's adaptations were excellent, but what I really found interesting was Free Companions, where he took clues from between the stories and added some much needed character development. Then, we had RoK, which in my opinion was a major step backward. And the Wood comic finally opened my eyes to the idea that much more can be done with this material rather than just slavish imitations of the original Howard stories. For the first time I'm waiting on the next installment of a Conan story that I've read dozens of times, and I don't know what's going to happen. That's pretty exciting.

it's definitely not a lazy argument, it's why you have to wade through dreck like Island of No Return and that Robertson nonsense where he's king sort of. The problem is that a lot of the pasticheurs are sub par- sometimes giving us stories in a fatal cocktail of sub par art AND story. so point being why can't someone deliver a run of sick and awesome conan stories that IS new material? it happens ALL the time with other characters, and it can happen with conan, but that means you need to come at it from a position of respect, keep your base, and add in. stay grounded.

now in comes wood, who, at least from what I have read of northlanders, is a decent to very good story teller- from what i've read of northlanders, he can do the Howard/wood blend and do it justice. but some of these changes don't serve any purpose other than...to what? be different? that in and of itself is no reason to change what by consensus is already one of the best loved and definitive conan stories. And there is a reason why that is so. If that is what he wanted to accomplish, and DH wanted to accomplish, then give him a 3-5 issue arc and let him do his thing. Don't use QotBC. That's the problem with the movie too- they want both worlds to be happy and that's not the way to make both worlds happy.

you would have the same feeling of wonder and excitement for all the inbetweener issues, especially if issue one had been knocked out of the park like it could have been and practically was, how wood ties it all together, if he had been grounded. you would have still been able to have the dream sequence, he could have done a few minor tweaks to put his stamp on it, and new readers wouldn't know any better or worse any way being unfamiliar with the story. If you think about it, he has A LOT of material he can dig into, give us the new stuff we haven't seen before, and still be true.

we don't know exactly how howard would have taken it, to have his character and stories run roughshod. maybe for some people he would have given his blessing and a free rein. i think he would have been man enough to concede when a tweak to his story was for its betterment, but so far with this version of QotBC I feel it's safe to say he wouldn't have wanted Conan looking like the lead singer of all american rejects or death cab for cutie. He slings a sword not a frappacino. and shifting around the story elements that lead up to him jumping on the argus definitely notch him down a few pegs.

and I don't see what is so wrong with the exposition to the story as is- it sets the pace and tone and delivers the theme quite well. if you want to introduce new readers to the character, don't you want them to get to know the character? Dave pointed out a few areas where wood could have shined and done so respectfully, and there's more spots that are wide open. Dave, that court scene is in RoK by the way, but even that got diluted and changed...Conan was already in the jail as opposed to having been hauled into court to appear before the judge from the street. They had to trump up some ludicrous bit of story to explain how Conan got his gear in the same room as the judge lol.

Anyway everyone is going to see it exactly how Howard wrote it differently. That's language. Nord did Rogues with a nod to Frazzetta and Howard but made it his own, same with FGD. So it can definitely be done, the problem is editor/talent- the team has to come together.

Doing something different for the sake of doing something different is where the laziness is. Much tougher to do a cohesive blend and Conan has suffered a lot because of that.

I just want to see the character get the treatment he deserves to get and I think Wood/Cloonan just needed stronger editors.

Why couldn't someone just say to wood/cloonan, this is good, I like the direction, but seriously, read here where Howard says he's kind of sinister looking, he's not handsome, he scores with women and the men around him not through his looks, his face is scarred, dark, his arms heavy- he has a force of personality, big swings between mirth and melancholy. Chronologically, this is what he has been through so far near as we can guess. He really can wash the deck in the blood of its crew. You don't have to make him look like the hulk mind you, in fact please don't. Keep the emotion, ditch the starbucks.

Wood and Cloonan both mentioned the CtB movie in their lead up interviews.

It seems this is too much to ask?

[Aquilonia]

Monk, face the fact that we disagree on this one. You will not convince me of your point and vice-versa. We both have our reasons to think what we think and both of us are right.
It is just a matter of preferences, of personal references I should say.
I`ve had my fill, not discussing Wood`s choice of straying away from the main source anymore.

Edited by Aquilonia, 22 February 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[monk]

Ummm....okay brother. Don't sugarcoat it tell us how you really feel...

[Aquilonia]

Ummm....okay brother. Don't sugarcoat it tell us how you really feel...

I really feel hungry right now. Gonna buy a pizza, he, he.
Sorry, Monk, I didn`t mean to be harsh, I just think this discussion is not productive anymore, since we have our own opinions, and neither of us are entirely wrong or right. I know what you mean, but I tend to think, up to this point, the deviation is not a bad thing.
Let`s now leave our thoughts for # 2, uh?
We still have 24 issues to go

[monk]

I'm looking forward to them!

[amster]

Cloonan's art bothered me at first, for the reasons that's already been cited (especially by me); he's not muscular enough, he's not sinister enough, he's not scarred enough, etc., etc, but after looking at the comic for a while the shock wore off, and I started to notice stuff that I was too distracted to notice at first, such as how excellent the pace and the storyboarding is. It's really cinematic and breathtaking, especially the last few pages, where they take Howard's ideas that he expressed in words and translate them almost entirely through images. I also noticed that the character's aren't drawn to be as realistic as possible when it comes to body proportions, like you see in Nord or Giorello's images. They look more like cartoon characters. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because that style of drawing is more open to visual metaphores that would be harder for an artist to get away with if he/she were using a more lifelike style. That's especially true in the case of Belit. My intitial reaction was that she was not at all realistic, but that's kind of the point. She's not supposed to be. Her physical characteristics are deliberately exaggerated to emphasize her character.

[Dave the Rage]

Cloonan's art bothered me at first, for the reasons that's already been cited (especially by me); he's not muscular enough, he's not sinister enough, he's not scarred enough, etc., etc, but after looking at the comic for a while the shock wore off, and I started to notice stuff that I was too distracted to notice at first, such as how excellent the pace and the storyboarding is. It's really cinematic and breathtaking, especially the last few pages, where they take Howard's ideas that he expressed in words and translate them almost entirely through images. I also noticed that the character's aren't drawn to be as realistic as possible when it comes to body proportions, like you see in Nord or Giorello's images. They look more like cartoon characters. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because that style of drawing is more open to visual metaphores that would be harder for an artist to get away with if he/she were using a more lifelike style. That's especially true in the case of Belit. My intitial reaction was that she was not at all realistic, but that's kind of the point. She's not supposed to be. Her physical characteristics are deliberately exaggerated to emphasize her character.

I like your thoughts on this, but I think the old fans find it hard to let go of the Buscema Conan at times. The visual panels make the story what it is and if they run smooth then the story follows the path, but when you get hiccups like the dream or not dream sequence then you run into issues of pacing. I got caught at the dream sequence and it lost its smooth run for me.

The art is better than what I thought it would be tbh, I thought it would be cartoonish and simplistic, but it isn't at all. The Belit scene is pretty striking and sucks you in as you say Amster. Tito also reminds me of a man that has had a hard life, it shows in his face...great depth by Cloonan there. The young Conan could have done with more beef and scars no doubt, but is not as bad as I thought it could have been.

I can't imagine Afro Samuria being done in a different style than Mangaish style, and I thought also that Conan could not have been done in a different style than that of realism, but hey I have been proved wrong before and look forward to being proved wrong again.....when the viewing figures are released on this baby come the finsih line!

[Dave the Rage]

Is there any news on the issues sold on QotBC?