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The Prehistoric Americas And The Pictish Isles/isles Of The Sunset


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#1 EJA

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 10:50 AM

A personal theory of mine is that during the Pre-Cataclysmic Age, North America did exist, but the regions comprising modern Alaska and Canada were under the sea, so it was smaller. The Appalachian Mountain Range may have been the Pictish Isles. I think the proto-North American continent may well have been the location of the kingdom of Kaa-u. Along with Atlantis and the Pictish Isles, it was frequently attacked by the pirate fleets of Lemuria, who navigated through the sea where Canada and Alaska now are.

#2 theagenes

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:04 PM

A personal theory of mine is that during the Pre-Cataclysmic Age, North America did exist, but the regions comprising modern Alaska and Canada were under the sea, so it was smaller. The Appalachian Mountain Range may have been the Pictish Isles. I think the proto-North American continent may well have been the location of the kingdom of Kaa-u. Along with Atlantis and the Pictish Isles, it was frequently attacked by the pirate fleets of Lemuria, who navigated through the sea where Canada and Alaska now are.


Hi ELA! Some interesting theories. If you get a chance you should read "Men of the Shadows" in the Bran Mak Morn collection. In the story, written late '25/early '26, we get the begininnings of Howard's fictional prehistoric world, including some of the same elements that would appear in "The Hyborian Age" like the rising up of the Pictish Isles to form the mountains of North American. He makes it clear though that it is the Rocky Mountains that he's speaking of. We also learn that surviving Lemurians are the founders of the Toltec civilization in Central America that appears in several later stories.

Another important piece of the puzzle are the "Isles of Eons" drafts. They're a little tough to find, having only been printed in an issue of The Dark Man a few years ago, but they give great insight into Howard's thinking as he was developing his prehistoric world, particularly into Lemuria and Mu. Kaa-u is tougher to place since it only appears in one line in "The Shadow Kingdom." Rippke makes it a proto-Africa, but with no evidence at all to support this conjecture. In the sentence in TSK where it's mentioned it is grouped with Mu. Also, the "aa" dipthong seems to start appearing after Howard read James Churchward first Mu book in late '26/early '27 where you see it used a good bit. Therefore I tend to think it is somehow associated with Mu in the Pacific. But really I have no more to go on than you or Rippke.

Edited by theagenes, 28 April 2011 - 12:11 PM.

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#3 EJA

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 10:09 PM

A common opinion among Howard scholars is that during the Pre-Cataclysmic Age, the majority of the North American continent was under the sea, and the Pictish Isles were what would later become the Rocky Mountains (though I personally reckon they could have been the Appalachians). I used to think this idea was a bit silly, to be quite honest, until I heard about the Western Inland Sea that covered much of North America in the Cretaceous era. Okay, so that's countless aeons before the time of King Kull, but it shows that it's not completely impossible for it to have been largely absent for a period. I have an idea that something similar may have happened in the millennia leading up to Kull's time, with North America being carved up into a number of smaller landmasses (A favourite theory of mine is that this may have been the location of Kaa-u, mentioned briefly in The Shadow Kingdom), with the Pictish Islands being located off the eastern coast of one of these lands. If you're interested, you can read about my example here:

http://en.wikipedia....Interior_Seaway

#4 Taranaich

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 02:27 PM

I don't see why it can't be the Rockies and the Appalachians (and Sierra Madre and the Andes for that matter), since all Howard mentions is that the islands formed the mountain peaks of a new continent:

Atlantis and Lemuria sank, and the Pictish Islands were heaved up to form the mountain peaks of a new continent.
- "The Hyborian Age"


He even visited a nameless continent in the western hemisphere, and roamed among the islands adjacent to it.
- Letter to P.S. Miller


Given that the great inland sea stretched between those two mountains for hundreds of miles at its greatest extent (note that Texas was submerged), one can see how Howard could've been inspired by the idea of his dry, rocky homeland once being a great sea. Especially going by the sea-life fossils you can find even around Caddo Peak.

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#5 EJA

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 01:33 PM

Well the sea couldn't have covered everything except the peaks of the Rockies and Appalachians in Kull's time, otherwise too few animal life would have survived and been able to prosper into the modern era. So there had to be other adequately large areas of land in the vicinity for life to exist comfortably on.

Also, doesn't Howard refer to ancient Alaska, the original homeland of the Picts, as being a small continent in one of his stories (I think it was Men of the Shadows)?

#6 deuce

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:24 PM

A common opinion among Howard scholars is that during the Pre-Cataclysmic Age, the majority of the North American continent was under the sea, and the Pictish Isles were what would later become the Rocky Mountains (though I personally reckon they could have been the Appalachians).


Hey EJA! Why do you think they could've been the Appalachians?


I used to think this idea was a bit silly, to be quite honest, until I heard about the Western Inland Sea that covered much of North America in the Cretaceous era. Okay, so that's countless aeons before the time of King Kull, but it shows that it's not completely impossible for it to have been largely absent for a period. I have an idea that something similar may have happened in the millennia leading up to Kull's time, with North America being carved up into a number of smaller landmasses (A favourite theory of mine is that this may have been the location of Kaa-u, mentioned briefly in The Shadow Kingdom), with the Pictish Islands being located off the eastern coast of one of these lands. If you're interested, you can read about my example here:

http://en.wikipedia....Interior_Seaway


Waitaminnit. You thought the North American landmass being split into archipelagoes was "silly", but you were willing to let slide humanoid/shape-shifting serpents and the submersion of a small continent? The Seaway (like the Dry Med) has been known of for some time. As I've stated again and again and again, the science serves REH; not the other way around.

I high-five your intuition that Kaa-u was in the Western Hemisphere (but NOT the Pictish Isles). B)

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#7 deuce

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:57 PM

Well the sea couldn't have covered everything except the peaks of the Rockies and Appalachians in Kull's time, otherwise too few animal life would have survived and been able to prosper into the modern era. So there had to be other adequately large areas of land in the vicinity for life to exist comfortably on.


You state that as if there couldn't have been "land-bridges" (the dominant theory during Howard's era) right up to the advent of mankind. Around that period, various regions could've been submerged. Such would account for the bison found on the Pictish Isles.

Also, doesn't Howard refer to ancient Alaska, the original homeland of the Picts, as being a small continent in one of his stories (I think it was Men of the Shadows)?


Asia was specifically stated as being the motherland of the Nameless Tribe/the Picts. "Alaska" (as well as what would make up Canada) appears to have been made up of archipelagoes which probably dwarfed Indonesia and the present-day British Isles.

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#8 theagenes

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 04:33 PM

Deuce is absolutely right in that modern scientific knowledge is not very helpful for understanding REH's prehistoric world. What is helpful is an understanding of the science (and pseudo science) of his day.

On the Rocky mountains, in MotS he explicitly states that it is the western mountain range of NA that becomes the Pictish Isles (BMM:TLK p. 23). Hope that helps.
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#9 EJA

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 12:41 PM

True, but MotS also states that after the Great Cataclysm, the Nameless Tribe migrated to Atlantis, where in The Hyborian Age Atlantis was submerged under the ocean by this point.

Incidentally, has anyone ever thought of doing a map of the Western Hemisphere in the Thurian Age? That would be interesting.

#10 theagenes

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 10:32 PM

True, but MotS also states that after the Great Cataclysm, the Nameless Tribe migrated to Atlantis, where in The Hyborian Age Atlantis was submerged under the ocean by this point.

Incidentally, has anyone ever thought of doing a map of the Western Hemisphere in the Thurian Age? That would be interesting.



Deuce, Has made some excellent maps of the world during the Thurian Age. Maybe he can post some.

For my PCA/ACA paper this past April I did an animated sequence in my PPT presentation using Surfer mapping software that showed the earth changes described in MotS. I'm actually working on converting that presentation to a podcast, so maybe in a few weeks I can have it up on the REHupa site.
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#11 EJA

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 12:53 PM

Deuce, would you mind posting a copy of your pre-Cataclysmic world map here, please? Thank you.

Incidentally, I reckon that Kaa-u was the proto-Alaskan/Canadian landmass, and was to the immediate north of the sea containing the Pictish Islands. Beyond these was the northern coastline of the Nameless Continent (prehistoric Mexico and Central and South America). By the latter half of the Hyborian era, the southern continent had become populated by descendants of Atlantean refugees, probably interbred with the indigenous folk of the region (an offshoot of which inhabited the eastern coasts of Thuria before the Cataclysm), and was the location of realms such as Zothique and Mayapan. The latter is from Carter/de Camp's Conan of the Isles, and the former is mentioned in a comic story from Marvel's short-lived Conan the Savage magazine, set post-Isles. By this time period, the North American continent might have become habitable, as I believe there's a SSOC story where King Conan visits it (before Conan of the Isles, as his son Conn is still an infant at the time). I can't help it, I'm a big fan of the Marvel Conan stuff....well, most of it anyway.

#12 EJA

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 06:17 PM

So, uh.....any chance of seeing those Thurian world maps soon?

#13 deuce

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:32 PM

So, uh.....any chance of seeing those Thurian world maps soon?


Not much chance of a new map in the near future. Maybe something by next summer.

However, my Thurian Age world map (which debuted at Howard Days '07) was posted on the Dial "P" For Pulp site (as well as an account of HD '07). Here's the link to Drage's site:

http://www.ironmammo...t/dialpforpulp/

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#14 deuce

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 10:53 AM

So, uh.....any chance of seeing those Thurian world maps soon?


Did you find my '07 map, EJA?

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#15 deuce

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 10:57 AM

True, but MotS also states that after the Great Cataclysm, the Nameless Tribe migrated to Atlantis, where in The Hyborian Age Atlantis was submerged under the ocean by this point.



REH's "The Hyborian Age" essay does NOT preclude the Picts stopping over in Atlantis. Hope that helps. :)

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