413 replies to this topic

[deuce]

What are you doing? Is there something weird about your computer? Are you composing it in some weird word processor?

I agree. It only seems to be happening to Constantine. It's unfortunate, because those posts are quite interesting, but very difficult to read.

Constantine, if you want, I could probably go in and edit the effed-up posts into a more readable format.

[constantine]

I agree. It only seems to be happening to Constantine. It's unfortunate, because those posts are quite interesting, but very difficult to read.

I think I saw once the same problem in someone else's post as well. And some of my posts are normal (more or less). Am I responsible for this mess? What should I do in order to place correctly other people's quotes? I feel like a retarded Hyborian...

Constantine, if you want, I could probably go in and edit the effed-up posts into a more readable format.

That sounds nice. If possible, it would be good to have the posts in a readable condition, so that others will be able to put their own comments. If it is trouble though, just leave them the way they are. Hope I don't ruin this post as well...

[Ironhand]

I agree. It only seems to be happening to Constantine. It's unfortunate, because those posts are quite interesting, but very difficult to read.

I think I saw once the same problem in someone else's post as well. And some of my posts are normal (more or less). Am I responsible for this mess? What should I do in order to place correctly other people's quotes? I feel like a retarded Hyborian...

Constantine, if you want, I could probably go in and edit the effed-up posts into a more readable format.

That sounds nice. If possible, it would be good to have the posts in a readable condition, so that others will be able to put their own comments. If it is trouble though, just leave them the way they are. Hope I don't ruin this post as well...

Thats perfect!

[deuce]

I agree. It only seems to be happening to Constantine. It's unfortunate, because those posts are quite interesting, but very difficult to read.

I think I saw once the same problem in someone else's post as well. And some of my posts are normal (more or less). Am I responsible for this mess? What should I do in order to place correctly other people's quotes? I feel like a retarded Hyborian...

Constantine, if you want, I could probably go in and edit the effed-up posts into a more readable format.

That sounds nice. If possible, it would be good to have the posts in a readable condition, so that others will be able to put their own comments. If it is trouble though, just leave them the way they are. Hope I don't ruin this post as well...

Been really busy. Will reformat when I have time.

[Gin-Wulf]

so great research you have done, but it still doesn't change the fact that you personally are taking an ancient "look" away from reading REH, and that does not change the fact that that is wrong. there may be names and such that match up with the ancient world but after reading how REH himself felt about rome and greece and most the ancient world there is no way any western hyborian nation is based off them.
all the high spires and towers seem more medieval.the 5 foot Aqualonian sword seems WAY more medieval. conan himself is most often dressed in medieval clothing, wether it be wide legged short breeches with a white wide collar wide sleeve shirt. or chain and plate mail.
i have no clue were your idea of a 80s ban wagon jump on to things medieval, but trying to make conans world be what the creator intended is not a recent phenomenon .
17th C Solomon Kane is set in renaissance times not medieval.
the idea that people can't "see" and medieval/renaissance world with some ancient in there is like a mental block, it the same for those who will read REH words and still picture a F.F. cover as conan. it doesn't matter if it what you want to see that fact is when you start doing that you couldn't be more wrong.
i know i for one get pissed off if the cover has conan in chain mail fighting skeletons but that look or scene never comes up in the book. that is like false advertising.

[Gin-Wulf]

tunic and sandals with out pants was a common dressing style for the irish up till the end of the 16th century.

[constantine]

While the title of the topic is about the Hyborian Age, the debate is mainly about the culture of the Hyborian kingdoms. No one doubts, for example, that Shem and Stygia correspond to historical Near Eastern civilizations of antiquity. But the ethnically Hyborian nations, with the partial exception of Koth, have a predominantly pseudo-medieval culture, one that has the High and Late Middle Ages as a primary source of inspiration. In any case, they are not exact replicas of historical medieval kingdoms. Of course, there are no few elements and echoes of other historical periods, from Classical antiquity to Late Renaissance (I mentioned some in an earlier, barely readable post), but these do not alter the basic character of Hyboria, which is medieval.

The ''Aquiromians'' thread deals with this topic, but from the perspective of a ''Romanized'' Aquilonia. Taranaich's articles on the issue treat the subject properly (and, if anything, rather mildly for my own tastes) and some of his arguments can easily be applied for rest of the Hyborian kingdoms as well.

As for this thread:

Black Colossus - references to mounted Knights.

Relief from Kermanshah Iran shows a cataphract from the final years of the centuries long war between Rome and Persia. The heavily armoured Parthian Knight, with helmet , shield and long lance, and a heavy horse armoured with what was probably quilted cloth, looks like a figure from the high middle ages .

Circa 50 BC Crassus legions where destroyed by mounted horsemen similar to Europes Knights of 1200 years later. I guess real history is not such a neat package after all.

Bront

What's that supposed to mean? What do the ancient Hellenistic Greek (Seleucid), Parthian, Sassanid Persian or Late Roman cataphracts have to do with the Hyborian knighthood as it is presented in the canon? In fact, the knights of Khoraja in BC are even more ''west-european medieval'' than I expected, riding with ladies' tokens on their belts or helmets, while their steeds did curvets and so on. As for the existence of ''Knights'' in a Classical Antiquity context, the term was introduced in anglophone histories to describe the Roman Equites (a social class of Rome) for lack of a better one. No connection whatsoever with the medieval knights (not to mention that the Roman cavalry was really lame before the Late Imperial era).

Further, you should remember the victorious charge of the exiled Khauranians (Kothic Hyborians and probable counterparts to medieval knights) against the asshuri in AWsbB. Most reminiscent of European crusaders charging on their foes (and REH was heavily influenced from the Crusades).

I should add that the Hyborian knights exist in a society that has an obvious High/Late Medieval basis. One notable exception could be the description in THotD of Emilius Scavonus, a powerful Aquilonian noble in royal lands, as a ''patrician''. Even if it is not a ''stock-phrase'' (and I think it isn't), this does not change the fundamentally medieval character of the Aquilonian society.

Actually, THotD is the most ''medievalist'' Conan story. The plague in Nemedia is believed to be a mark of Mitra's wrath due to the sins of men, Orastes was bound to burn at the stake for practicing black magic (that he was a former priest of Mitra is a definite indication of Late Medieval influence), the great bell tolls the dirge of the king's death in Tarantia and so on.

When I think of Hyborian cities I see something a little like Rome, Athens, Babylon and Carthage. The last thing on my mind are lordly stone castles overlooking rustic hamlets with their peasant populations. Let me break down some of the Conan tales.

Bront

Well, that is a novelty. Carthage might have something to do with Koth, while Babylon is out of the question. So where did you find inferences that would suggest a Hyborian counterpart to Rome or Athens? Maybe something close to Late 15th c. Italian cities on the course of early Renaissance with the added medieval spires (probably even for secular buildings), plus a few touches from antiquity, like the Museum inTGitB. But where is a forum, a curia, an agora or an acropolis?

In short, a small number of influences from non-medieval periods does not indicate a culture oriented towards Classical Antiquity. Koth, as has been stated in earlier posts, seems somewhere between ''medieval'' Hyboria and ancient ''Near East'' (Shem mainly). Similarities with historical events from Late Antiquity barely have effect on Hyborian culture (and no barbarian became Roman emperor). The closest thing to Rome would be Acheron and that by a long shot.

Last but not least, most illustrations of Conan, no matter how great they might look (say, Frazetta's Conan versus the Vanir, Conan wearing only loincloth, about to go to a Manowar concert), do not reflect the images the original REH tales would conjure. And neither do most of the pastiche stories, including those by respectable writers like Wagner. Period.

Edited by constantine, 05 February 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[Ironhand]

All I needed to convince me that the leading Hyborian nations were feudal in nature was the big battle early in THotD, which depicted clashes between armored chivalry in articulated plate - not maneuvering of phalanxes and legions. Other battles in other stories talk about Bossonian longbowmen and Gunderman pikemen. The Gundermen alone might be called phalanxes, but the overall relation of chivalry (as the leading and main arm of Hyborian armies) and Gunderland pikemen and Bossonian longbowmen sound decidedly medieval, perhaps late medieval or early Renaissance, when combined arms forces were beginning to be used.

And from time to time, REH talks about nobles clad in jupons and doublets - medieval garb.

Stygians and Shemites are described in Ancient or maybe classical terms. The Nordheimers sound like they are right out of the Dark Ages. REH was mixing cultures and periods in his world for maximum effect. But the leading Hyborian nations were medieval in nature.

Edited by Ironhand, 06 February 2012 - 09:26 AM.

[Gin-Wulf]

there is like one "horned " helmet in example that i have seen in a museum and those are not even real horns but formed from the metal and look nothing like bulls horns.
but people "seeing" what they want seems to be half the problem with this franchise , its not about what we wanna see, its about what REH created, what he wrote and there is no greek/roman theme.

[Taranaich]

Bront, you have no idea how much I want to address your post, but I'm dealing with many of the issues you raise in my "Aquiromian Holiday" series on my personal blog. I've been using "The Phoenix on the Sword" to discuss the alleged Ancient/Classical milieu of the Hyborian Kingdoms, but a story you bring up, "Black Colossus," has so many quintessentially and indisputably Medieval elements that denying them would be untenable.

Briefly: there is zero justification to say that the Ancient elements of the Hyborian Age kingdoms in any way override, overshadow or otherwise take precedence over the medieval elements. You cite cataphracts, as if Howard's mention of knights should be taken as "really" meaning the heavy cavalry of the Persians, Sarmatians and such. However, a reading of Black Colossus would (or should) assuage any doubt that Howard was fully intending his knights to be knights with a capital (silent) K:

There were the knights, gleaming in richly wrought plate-armor, colored plumes waving above their burnished sallets. Their steeds, caparisoned with silk, lacquered leather and gold buckles, caracoled and curvetted as their riders put them through their paces. The early light struck glints from lance-points that rose like a forest above the array, their pennons flowing in the breeze. Each knight wore a lady’s token, a glove, scarf or rose, bound to his helmet or fastened to his sword-belt. They were the chivalry of Khoraja, five hundred strong, led by Count Thespides, who, men said, aspired to the hand of Yasmela herself.


Plate armour, plumed sallets, caparisons, caracoles, pennons, lady's tokens, chivalry: you couldn't get much more Medieval if you tried. If you can find any classical sources that could even be arguably interpreted as analogues, I'd like to hear them.

You mention "lordly stone castles overlooking rustic hamlets with their peasant populations" being the last thing on your mind. Really? Even after reading passages like this:

As the villages thinned, the land grew more rugged, and the keeps that frowned from eminences told of centuries of border war. But none rode down from those castles to challenge or halt him. The lords of the keeps were following the banner of Amalric; the pennons that were wont to wave over these towers were now floating over the Aquilonian plains.

Guess you and I are reading different stories.

This attempt to give the world of Conan a more medieval cast seems to be a recent phenomenon and is an attempt in large part, to pander to the new wave fantasy crowd who jumped on board during the revival of High Fantasy literature in the late 1980’s. Look at some of the threads on this forum and you will find politically correct subjects about Conan’s treatment of women, or what Conan tale should I recommend to my wife or child. It is a modern cultural thing. I’m sure The Hobbit will do well on the silver screen ( one medium where Conan unfortunately will always miserably fail ). It is a little like some people are embarrassed of Conan and the Hyborian Age and want to re-imagine the whole thing.

I have a rather different interpretation: I think that the "ancient" Hyborian kingdoms misrepresentation is a mistake that has persisted for far too long. I'm also disquieted by your reference to "politically correct" topics regarding Conan's treatment of women, and that you seem to assert Conan will always fail on screen - as if there's something inherent to Conan, not Hollywood's stupidity, which causes it. Most of all, though, is this implication that applying Medieval aspects is endemic of some sort of agenda of embarassment, as if we want to re-imagine Howard's creation so it "fits in" more with established fantasy, which is just so wrong-headed as to be somewhat astounding.

I see a bit of contradiction here. On the one hand you are saying that having some medieval style weaponry in the Hyborian Age proves a medieval basis for many parts of that age, and yet you argue that classical elements proves nothing.

This is because, despite your conflation of the cataphracts with knights, you can have "classical" things in Medieval settings, but not the reverse. You can have ballistae, legions, "imperial troops," temples and whatnot in a classical and medieval context, because both existed in those periods. A lot of technologies, institutions and inventions from the period carried on into the Middle Ages. But you can't have Medieval elements in a classical context, for obvious reasons.

Not to speak for Deuce, but the fact of the matter is that the medieval elements vastly outweigh the classical elements when it comes to the Hyborian kingdoms.
We have references to legions, imperial troops, imperial squadrons, mystery cults, and temples - all things which existed, in some way or another, in the Middle Ages as well as Classical period. But we also have references to things that are quintessentially Medieval: knights, pennons, seneschals, lady's tokens, batons of authority, high councillors, peers, caparisons, burgonets, bascinets, sollerets... Where are the manicae, centurions, consuls, phalanxes, aquilifers, gladiators, fasces, gladii, praetorians, senators?

Howard didn't talk down to his audience, so if he intended the Hyborian Kingdoms to be classical, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, because Howard wouldn't leave the reader in any doubt. Are there classical elements in the Hyborian Kingdoms? Of course, just as there were classical elements in the Middle Ages themselves. Were the Hyborian Kingdoms more Classical than Medieval? Were Tarantia, Belverus and Shamar more like Carthage, Rome or Babylon than - say - Orleans, Prague or Toledo? I'd say not.

[theagenes]

The fact we are here 80 years arguing about which historical analogues go with which HA countries shows me that REH was very successful with his "culture-splashing" in contra to HPL's opinion.

I'm enjoying the discussion so far. Let me throw out a little more red meat for you guys.

In fairness to Bront, there were barbarian Roman emperors in the last few centuries of the western empire. The first (and the one with the coolest name, imo) was Maximinius Thrax (i.e. Thracian) in the 3rd century. In most cases they were generals, like Conan, that seized power. I can buy that REH had this theme in mind when he made Conan usurp the throne. Just to play the name game (for what that's worth) I would suggest that Amalric/Almuric etc. has a Gothic/Merovingian sound. So I can see that might be some Late Empire/Early Dark Ages elements in there. If any period of Roman history would appeal to REH I would think this would be it.

But that said, the overall look and feel still seems to be more medieval.

A few random thoughts:

Patrice has noted that a good deal of the descriptive terms for TSC come from Doyle's The White Company and Sir Nigel, novels about The Hundred Year's War.

Another source of inspiration, according to Patrice, is apparently Carolingian, coming from Bulfinch's Legends of Charlemagne.

Also, keep in mind that immediately prior to the Conan series (and contemporanously with the first few Conan stories) REH was writing all of his Crusades stories. If you take the supernatural elements out of say "Black Colossus" and change Khoraja to Outremer, it would fit in very nicely in the pages of Oriental Stories or Magic Carpet.

Al, I haven't had a chance to read your Aquiromian series yet, except to glance over it. I'll check that out today.

Edited by theagenes, 06 February 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[constantine]

I also would have liked to see you breakdown more of the Conan yarns to back up your argument for a strong medieval basis ( as opposed to it is medieval because I say it is and that is what REH meant type of thing).

Bront

When I first posted on this thread I supported the existence of certain elements of Classical Antiquity (along with others, of course) in the Hyborian kingdoms, including the loincloth-sandals combination. But the predominant medieval influences were quite obvious to me and had already been exhaustively and painstakingly laid by many other forum members in numerous posts and not just in this thread. Therefore, I resent your demands for more evidence from the Conan yarns. Others have read your posts, so you should return the courtesy. And I suggest you read them carefully. If you don't want to that's fine. But then, you should really tone down this ''I'll show you how it is'' attitude about ''modern culture things''. The ''pro-medieval'' view is not arbitrary nor a subjective opinion, but based on Howard's works.

I applaud your response and I respect the effort you put in, but it is a personal opinion only ( as are all the posts, including mine ). I do like the historical associations ( always needed ) you included. I think you missed the whole point about the Parthian Knights.
You mention Orastes being bound to the stake to burn, but do not forget that in AWSBB Conan was nailed to a tree. Crucifiction and nailing criminals on stakes was very much a Roman practise.

Bront

Well, thank you, but I missed nothing about the Parthian ''knights'', as proven by the fact that you still call them such. They should not be termed as ''knights'' in the first place.
Crucifixion was not just Roman practice; it had been used earlier by others as well (Persians, Carthaginians, Greeks). In any case, check what has been written about Koth (some of it in the ''Hyperboreans'' thread).

I have read a few of the posts where note is made of Howard’s dislike for Romans and that is a reason why they could not be included in any capacity. Yet, we seem to meet them outright in the Bran Mak Morn tale Worm of the Earth in the form of characters like the Roman Titus Sulla.

Bront

Romans can be included as antagonists and enemies of tale hero, but not as protagonists or ''favourites''.

TFGD – Both Conan and the Vanir where dressed in mail corselets. They also had horned helmets. Now horned helmets have become stock barbaric items and have an ancient basis. Some ancient Gauls wore them and they crop up from time to time in some ancient near east cultures.

The Vanir are based on Vikings, but it is pure fiction on REH’s part. Vikings never wore horned helmets. REH was an amateur historian ( a really good one ) like you and me, and as a fictional writer wanted to add a bit of the Wagnerian opera thing. I would not comdemn him for it, but we should recognise it for it was.

Bront

First, I was talking about Frazetta's illustration; Conan wears only a loincloth. Therefore, it was not based on REH's story. And viking helmets were still believed to have horns by some at REH's time. What does this have to do with the non-Howardian representations of his characters? Finally, unlike you, I am not an amateur historian (and with a little luck I might be able to teach in the future).

You know, I am not trying to kow-tow you into submission or anything. But if you do not actually care about other people's views as stated in their posts, what's the point of debating?

[constantine]

Taking the bait...

In fairness to Bront, there were barbarian Roman emperors in the last few centuries of the western empire. The first (and the one with the coolest name, imo) was Maximinius Thrax (i.e. Thracian) in the 3rd century. In most cases they were generals, like Conan, that seized power. I can buy that REH had this theme in mind when he made Conan usurp the throne. Just to play the name game (for what that's worth) I would suggest that Amalric/Almuric etc. has a Gothic/Merovingian sound. So I can see that might be some Late Empire/Early Dark Ages elements in there. If any period of Roman history would appeal to REH I would think this would be it.

Theagenes

Maximinus Thrax was as Roman as Philippus Arabs (i.e. Arab). But the former was a legionary grunt who stayed in the embattled borderlands and disrespected the Senate, unlike the latter. Hence the intended pun about his supposedly barbarian origins in the histories of the 3rd c. The closest examples of barbarians getting close to the imperial throne would be the half-Roman, half-Vandal Stilicho, the Suevian Ricimer and Aspar the Alan, all in the Late period. None of them rose to the purple. I agree that Conan seems a more ambitious and succesful version of (and possibly inspired by) those men, but we are talking about a fantasy world. In any case, this has little to do with the culture of the Hyborian kingdoms.

Amalric is a historical name of medieval, French-born Crusader kings. Of Germanic origin and in Latinized form, such names appear in the High Middle Ages as well.

Edited by constantine, 06 February 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[theagenes]

You could also probably include Odoacer, who crowned himself king after deposing Romulus Augustulus. I can certainly see that Conan coming to power could be inspired by these figures at least in a general sense. I also completely agree that that doesn't change the fact that overall Hyborian culture is predominently medieval, as I indicated.

Actually I very much like your suggestion of Acheron as the analogue to imperial Rome in the other thread.

And yes, most likely REH got "Amalric" from the Amalrics that were kings of Jerusalem during the Crusades, but as the name was popular in the Dark Ages it seemed fair to throw it out as a possibilty. (playing devil's advocate a little bit)

Edited by theagenes, 06 February 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[constantine]

Odoacer came first in my mind, but even he did not dare to proclaim himself as emperor of Rome, but only as king of Italy, while sending the imperial insignia to Constantinople. I just recalled that the eastern (i.e. Byzantine) Roman emperor at the time was an Isaurian mountaineer who took the name Zeno when he ascended to the throne. While the Isaurians were Roman citizens in all probability, they were considered as little better than barbarians by other Byzantines.

Acheron's analogy with Rome has more to do with similarities in historical circumstances than anything else. But we should keep it out from this thread.

I really don't recall any Amalrics from the Early Middle Ages, while there were many Germanics with the latinized suffix -ric in their names. But you may be right.

[theagenes]

Amalaric son of Alaric was a king of the Visigoths.