413 replies to this topic

[Pictish Scout]

PS, you must understand that heresy doesn't have to belong in the ''same religious stream'' in Hyboria.

I don’t know that.

An encyclopedic definition of “Heresy” in religious (Christian) context would help us here. Also the context this word is used in tHotD. Or maybe REH definition of religious heresy.

Again, who told you that historically the dominant churches and their followers considered the heretics as branches of the ''mainstream'' Christianity? The ''Errores Gazariorum'' conflates the heresy of the Cathars with the perceived diabolism of witchcraft. Hardly a part of the ''same religious stream''. And there are many more examples.

When the first Christians started to use the word “heresy” it was to attack other Christians (namely Gnostics), not the pagans in the Roman Empire.

Are you implying that the Cathar Heresy was about diabolism and not about Christians diverging from the orthodoxy/main stream/Roman Catholic Church? Diabolism was the reason they were declared a heresy?

In any case, Howard in his most medievalist tale was probably inspired from medieval examples.

I am not sure it is his most medievalist tale but I do agree that there are a lot of medieval references there.

In the Hyborian kingdoms the religion of Mitra is dominant. The faithful may recognize the existence of other gods, but not accord them an equal position with Mitra. Further, they do not wish these faiths expanding in the Mitra-worshipping lands. The non-Mitraist cults may be labeled heretic, especially if they are believed to be connected with the Stygian religion

Set is a “demon” so I think it is natural his cult was banished. No need to get historical here.

King Conan is a “pagan” and I don’t remember any serious religious excuse to get rid of him.

Kalanthes (a Hyborian name?) seem to live in peace in Hanumar (in Nemedia?) even being a priest of Ibis. The same is not applicable to the cult o Asura in Aquilonia even when the cultists or the main priest are ethnically Hyborian.

To me the general population dislikes that cult because their ways are strange, secretive and they think it is associated with “demon” worship and cannibalism. Not because they are misinterpreting the "Mitraistic teachings".

If a cult from India reached medieval France and was embraced by some French people it wouldn’t be a case of “heresy” but “apostasy”. Even if a southern French noble called the cult leader a “heretic”.

If some French were reinterpreting the scriptures differently from the “main stream religion” AKA The Roman Catholic Church it would be called heresy. The end wouldn’t be much different for the apostate and the heretic though.

And the term heresy HAS been used by historians to describe Atenism

I know. Some did use the term, some didn't.

Edited by Pictish Scout, 14 March 2012 - 02:40 AM.

[constantine]

If a cult from India reached medieval France and was embraced by some French people it wouldn’t be a case of “heresy” but “apostasy”. Even if a southern French noble called the cult leader a “heretic”.

If some French were reinterpreting the scriptures differently from the “main stream religion” AKA The Roman Catholic Church it would be called heresy. The end wouldn’t be much different for the apostate and the heretic though.

Pictish Scout

PS, I think you try too much to find an absolutely exact replication of the Middle Ages in the Hyborian kingdoms in order to accept certain elements in Howard's tales as medieval influences. But inspirations from this historical era don't have to correspond exactly with similar aspects of Hyboria. The great bell in Tarantia tolling the dirge of the king's death is an obvious medieval element, even if the bell itself was placed in the Citadel and not in a Mitraist temple.

The same case can be made for the heretical cult of Asura. It doesn't have to fit to medieval models in an absolute manner to be understood for what it is: another echo of the Middle Ages in REH's Hyboria. And I really don't think that Howard would have to make great inroads in Christian theology to use a term like heresy in his Conan yarns.

Quote

PS, you must understand that heresy doesn't have to belong in the ''same religious stream'' in Hyboria.

I don’t know that.

An encyclopedic definition of “Heresy” in religious (Christian) context would help us here. Also the context this word is used in tHotD. Or maybe REH definition of religious heresy.

You DO know that. When an Aquilonian noble, obviously aware of the cult of Asura being an alien religion, calls its archpriest a heretic, it is clear that the terminology in Howard's imaginary Hyboria can be used for such religious groups who are not just dissident branches of the Mitraist religion. Howard's own world. Period. If REH wanted to use another term, he would put another word in Trocero's quote.

Check the other sorcerous characters in THotD. Apart from Xaltotun (who is a class unto himself), we have a witch, a former priest of Mitra practicing black magic (both clearly medieval influences) and a priest of a banned faith who is labeled ''heretical''. Well, where would you place the inspiration for Hadrathus and his cult? And please don't tell me that Zelata and Orastes were inspired from Erictho and Anacharsis...

Are you implying that the Cathar Heresy was about diabolism and not about Christians diverging from the orthodoxy/main stream/Roman Catholic Church? Diabolism was the reason they were declared a heresy?

Pictish Scout

For many medieval Catholics the Cathars were involved in diabolism. And this is pretty much the accusation brought against the cult of Asura in Aquilonia.

Kalanthes (a Hyborian name?) seem to live in peace in Hanumar (in Nemedia?) even being a priest of Ibis. The same is not applicable to the cult o Asura in Aquilonia even when the cultists or the main priest are ethnically Hyborian.

Pictish Scout

Kalanthes is a Hyborian name (it sounds somewhat Greek, like Orastes, coming from Orestes). For the cult of Ibis I have already pointed in post #351 that its hostility to Set may explain its acceptance (sects of it could exist in Aquilonia as well). Similarly, in the Astreas' letter in AWsbB, there is a marked respect for the creed of Ishtar, but not equality with the religion of Mitra.

Still, if you wish to believe that there must be an influence of Classical Antiquity on Howard in this issue, despite all evidence to the contrary, you probably cannot be convinced otherwise.

[constantine]

A point can be made on Shemitish nomenclature and some cultural aspects to show that they don't have to be exactly identical to historical Semitic ones. And unlike the Hyborians, the Shemites ''survived'' through their supposed descendants. This certainly affected Howard's name choices.

On place names: Akbitana, Shushan and Shumir were obviously inspired from Ecbatana, Susa (the biblical Shushan) and the land of Sumer, all non-Semitic. Of course, Shem represents the ancient Near East (except Egypt) and the Semitic influence is the most obvious.

On personal names: Gebal is a name of a city (Byblos), Khumbanigash is Elamitic, Bit Yakin is the name of a Chaldean tribe and Gilzan is a regional name (north of Assyria, if I recall it correctly). The Shupras fellow in BC had his name probably inspired from Shupria, another region/kingdom north of Mesopotamia, non-Semitic I think.

On culture: some details, basically in the Shemitic conduct of warfare, are not identical with those of the historical Semites. Civilized Shemitish armies may be composed entirely of cavalry. AFAIK, there is no similarity with actual Semitic forces. Also, they are known mostly as archers. That is certainly an eastern aspect but the armies of the ancient Near East were not exactly Mongols. Further, there is no mention of chariots, a standard element of ancient Semitic armies. They might be used by Shemitish royalty/nobility as in Koth, possibly an influence of Stygian culture, but that is speculation.

Despite these factors, Shem corresponds, more or less, with ancient Near East, especially the Semitic lands. There are numerous other details leading to this conclusion (and I haven't seen anyone disputing it). Of course, the Hyborian kingdoms present peculiarities of their own and are not exactly the same case.The point however is that explicit or generally obvious influences from the Middle Ages in the descriptions of the Hyborian kingdoms cannot be overridden or diminished, because of some non-medieval elements. In short, Hyboria doesn't have to be a perfect replica of medieval Europe, but the feel and imagery through Howard's works is clearly closer to the High and Late Middle Ages.

[Pictish Scout]

“But inspirations from this historical era don't have to correspond exactly with similar aspects of Hyboria. The great bell in Tarantia tolling the dirge of the king's death is an obvious medieval element, even if the bell itself was placed in the Citadel and not in a Mitraist temple.”

“In short, Hyboria doesn't have to be a perfect replica of medieval Europe, but the feel and imagery through Howard's works is clearly closer to the High and Late Middle Ages.”

Agreed.

”The same case can be made for the heretical cult of Asura. It doesn't have to fit to medieval models in an absolute manner to be understood for what it is: another echo of the Middle Ages in REH's Hyboria. And I really don't think that Howard would have to make great inroads in Christian theology to use a term like heresy in his Conan yarns.”

“You DO know that. When an Aquilonian noble, obviously aware of the cult of Asura being an alien religion, calls its archpriest a heretic, it is clear that the terminology in Howard's imaginary Hyboria can be used for such religious groups who are not just dissident branches of the Mitraist religion. Howard's own world. Period. If REH wanted to use another term, he would put another word in Trocero's quote.”

If I am not mistaken the word heretic is used only once by Trocero and never by the narrator . Trocero is not lecturing Conan on religion; he is expressing his opinion trying to dissuade Conan on trusting Hadrathus and a “mad witch-woman”. The same way Albiona says “These folk eat human flesh!”. These quotes are very similar in context. Both nobles are tring to convince Conan of something using, not his knowledge on religion, but their opinions and preconceptions.

If we try to compare the cult of Asura with medieval heresy or early Christians we get something like:

Early Christians - Was another religion, accused of evil religious and social practices, and were persecuted.
Christian medieval heresy – Was another interpretation of the orthodoxy (a heresy), accused of evil religious and social practices, persecuted.
Cult of Asura – Was another religion, accused of evil religious and social practices, persecuted.

You mentioned all the medieval aspects in the background and I agree, but there’s something more that I don’t think is characteristic of the European medieval era; It seem to me that kings in Hyborian lands (at least Aquilonia and Nemedia) have authority over religion (all religions in their realms); Conan, being a polytheistic pagan, rules over devout followers of Mitra and openly helps (and accepts help from) the cult of Asura.

There’s no Pope authority over religion or kings, although there are high-priests of Mitra, an inner circle of clerics and an “official ban” of the cult of Asura (by whom?).

To me the religion-state relationship in the Hyborian kingdoms don’t seem to be exclusively inspired on the middle ages. The cult of Asura is just an example in my opinion.

The point however is that explicit or generally obvious influences from the Middle Ages in the descriptions of the Hyborian kingdoms cannot be overridden or diminished, because of some non-medieval elements.

And “some non-medieval elements ” cannot be overridden or diminished (or ignored) because of the explicit, obvious and major influences from the Middle Ages.

In your opinion which are the "non-medieval elements" in the Hyborian kingdoms?

Edited by Pictish Scout, 18 March 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[constantine]

If I am not mistaken the word heretic is used only once by Trocero and never by the narrator . Trocero is not lecturing Conan on religion; he is expressing his opinion trying to dissuade Conan on trusting Hadrathus and a “mad witch-woman”. The same way Albiona says “These folk eat human flesh!”. These quotes are very similar in context. Both nobles are tring to convince Conan of something using, not his knowledge on religion, but their opinions and preconceptions.

PS, you are projecting your own ideas in a framework created by REH with a different approach. When Trocero terms the high priest of Asura a heretic, that means that in Aquilonia a faithful of Mitra perceives a certain alien cult as heretical. Period. It is irrelevant whether the rumors about it are true or what you perceive as heresy. The point is that Aquilonians would consider a religion believed to be connected with Stygian serpent-worship a heresy. Howard's creation. End of story. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing.

The religion of Mitra is mostly influenced by medieval Christianity, but it isn't a simple imitation (as I have pointed in the past). It has some of its own qualitative characteristics. Further, while the faithful of Mitra promote the creed of this ''universal god of the Hyborians'', they don't just target any other religion in their way. Thus, the cult of Ibis and for reasons mentioned in earlier post. Still, you bring in the early Christians, a subject beyond REH's interests, especially in this Conan yarn, where it is clear which faith is the counterpart of Christianity.

As for inspirations for Conan's collaboration with the cult of Asura, there are many. I mentioned Frederick II that you chose to ignore. I would add other alliances of Christians (including Crusaders) with Muslims, a fact not only known to Howard, but actually presented in some of his Crusade stories, for example ''The Lion of Tiberias''. Of course, there are certain differencies in some cases, but again the point is that the followers of the dominant faith may ally with non-believers.

And “some non-medieval elements ” cannot be overridden or diminished (or ignored) because of the explicit, obvious and major influences from the Middle Ages.

In your opinion which are the "non-medieval elements" in the Hyborian kingdoms?

In my earliest posts in this thread I actually supported the existence and role of non-medieval influences (including Classical ones) in the canon. I noted them again in #295. However, the problem that becomes apparent not only in this thread (as well as in others), but in the general presentation of the Hyborian kingdoms is that these non-medieval elements, plus other irrelevant details like the names, take precedence and the predominantly ''medievalesque'' character of Hyboria is dropped/transformed into a Classical one and not the other way around. Or some people simply ignore these medieval elements, because they prefer something entirely different. Check again Axerules' post #225.

[Pictish Scout]

When Trocero terms the high priest of Asura a heretic, that means that in Aquilonia a faithful of Mitra perceives a certain alien cult as heretical. Period.

That is your interpretation.

It is irrelevant whether the rumors about it are true or what you perceive as heresy.

I didn’t invent the word or its definition.

I mentioned Frederick II that you chose to ignore.

I mentioned my ignorance on that subject. It is quite different from “chose to ignore”.

The point is that Aquilonians would consider a religion believed to be connected with Stygian serpent-worship a heresy. Howard's creation. End of story. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing.

Sir, yes sir!

[PaulMc]

I have not read every single post on this thread, but according to the search function, no one has mentioned Rusty Burke's introduction to The Bloody Crown of Conan.

I tend to agree with Rusty, that the Hyborian Age is everything. It is not just classical, ancient or medieval. Howard put everybody together on the same map. He played with different historical populaces and time periods. This is how he did his world-building, as opposed to Tolkien who built his world from a love of language and sagas. Howard built his world from a love of history.

It's the same technique Charles Sanders later used when creating the fantasy Africa of Imaro. And why Saunders got it right and so many Howard imitators got worldbuilding (or, in the case of pastiche, world reusing) wrong.

If you haven't read Rusty's intro, you can just go to Amazon and preview the book and read the opening of it.

I find this the most relevant part;

The character of Conan "stalked full grown out of oblivion and set me at work recording the saga of his adventures." These exploits took place in a world populated by Elizabethan pirates, Irish reavers, and Barbary corsairs; American frontiersmen and Cossack raiders; Egyptian sorcerers and followers of Roman mystery cults; medieval knights and Assyrian armies. All were given disguises,...

Personally, I find nothing to disagree with there.

The Bloody Crown of Conan Amazon link.

[mario]

I absolutely agree. I think just reading the opening 'disclaimer ' to the hyborian age essay, should have answered this question.though I am not fully convinced that REH despite his cross referencing , was a 'deliberate' world builder. I think maybe he was doing his own version of a mythos of sorts, and if that constitues world building, by mananan mac lir, i stand corrected.

[Kortoso]

It is, as they say, a floor wax AND a dessert topping. I always suspected as much.

[PaulMc]

I am not fully convinced that REH despite his cross referencing , was a 'deliberate' world builder.

Yeah, I believe Howard's world building was organic. I don't think he sat down to create a whole world first, as so many authors today believe they are required to do.

Story was first for Howard. He'd put in what he'd need to support the current story.

I do think, though, that he was savvy enough that once he'd created a kingdom, he'd stick with it and not contradict himself later. (which is often a off-the-cuff-world-building issue, the polar opposite of thinking out every single aspect of the background world.) Eventually, the world emerged from all that.

Glen Cook never (or almost never) has the standard fantasy trope of a map. Sometimes I wish he would, but in an interview he stated he doesn't like maps, because they limit where the story can go. I'd hazard he has a similar 'world building' method as Howard did.

[constantine]

I tend to agree with Rusty, that the Hyborian Age is everything. It is not just classical, ancient or medieval. Howard put everybody together on the same map. He played with different historical populaces and time periods. This is how he did his world-building, as opposed to Tolkien who built his world from a love of language and sagas. Howard built his world from a love of history.

PaulMc

Nobody disagrees on that AFAIK. However, the debate for the most part (and despite the title of the thread) has not been about the Hyborian Age in general, but about the Hyborian kingdoms in particular. In fact, it is the downplaying of the medieval elements in Hyboria that limits the scope of REH's imaginary world. There are countless references in this thread that point to this tendency.

Yeah, I believe Howard's world building was organic. I don't think he sat down to create a whole world first, as so many authors today believe they are required to do.

Story was first for Howard. He'd put in what he'd need to support the current story.

I do think, though, that he was savvy enough that once he'd created a kingdom, he'd stick with it and not contradict himself later. (which is often a off-the-cuff-world-building issue, the polar opposite of thinking out every single aspect of the background world.) Eventually, the world emerged from all that.

PaulMc

It is highly probable that Howard's world-building was not spontaneous and complete from beginning. But he did contradict himself (a prominent example is the name, or lack of it, of the Aquilonian capital). IMHO that is a strong indication that the author, apart from selling his stories (an obvious concern), was interested in developing the imaginary world that served as a background for his yarns. Otherwise, such inconsistencies would not have appeared (like the city/region/kingdom where RitH takes place).

[constantine]

Quote

When Trocero terms the high priest of Asura a heretic, that means that in Aquilonia a faithful of Mitra perceives a certain alien cult as heretical. Period.

That is your interpretation.

Pictish Scout

It is not my interpretation. The author put down a character who labeled as heretical the archpriest of a banned cult. What could be more simple than that? Of course, a character may be presented with views of his own, often faulty. But Trocero's quote actually reveals that the term and accusation of heresy exists in Aquilonia, even for an alien religion. And when the said Aquilonian follows a religion whose closest equivalent is (medieval) Christianity, how should one perceive the aforementioned outlawed cult? As one inspired from the early Christians? This was REH's interpretation, not mine.

I didn’t invent the word or its definition.

Pictish Scout

True. But you give another definition from the one used by REH.

Quote

I mentioned Frederick II that you chose to ignore.

I mentioned my ignorance on that subject. It is quite different from “chose to ignore”.

Pictish Scout

Actually, you chose to ignore it. You keep mentioning Conan's religious policies as aspects without anything equivalent in the Middle Ages, when it is clear that Howard could have been inspired by such examples from the medieval era.

No need for sarcasm PS. If these explanations are utterly unacceptable to you and you wish to find something Roman in the cult of Asura, we just have to disagree.

[Ironhand]

Of course Howard put everything into his world. But what spawned this thread in the first place was the excessive "Romanization" of Aquilonia by artists, to the complete dismissal of medieval aspects.

[ollonois]

hey I'm very glad that a post created by me has became this interesting changes of ideas and opinions about the correspondences between hyborian age and real history, my favourite subject in Howard related issues.

I've got some ideas to expose:

First, not only by Frazetta, but from the depiction of the character and his background by other artists is the mind image we have of Conan not exactly as a medieval saga, take for instance this powerful illustration by Nestor Redondo



you can feel the neoclassical feel and quality of the painting it reminds the style of the neoclassical french artist David

About the names, you have mentioned the shakesperian theory very correct in my opinion but you haven't mention, at elast not as much as the people names, the names of geographical issues, take for instance Argos, Messantia, Aquilonia, Tabor, Tarantia, Numalia, Corinthia... for being indiferent or agressive with classical issues he took a lot of toponyms from the greeks and the romans

The as REH wrote a lot of medieval historical stories and almost no classical ones the hyborian kingdoms must be taken as medieval Europe thing is a kind of phalacy for me since these tales were set most of them in the near east in the time of the Crusades not in Europe

But otherwise I'm in the medieval side, and I can't understand something, I think medieval scenarios are more atractive for epic fantasy reader... Tolkien, George RR Martin, Dragonlance... why then the comic artists and writers had not gave a chance to medieval depictions in the comics of Conan? at least sometimes to vary a little... by the way I have the curiosity, which artists do you think have bring the more medieval feel and tone to the Conan comics?

More interesting things I have read here, and I think this can give place to other post, your sights on the concept itself of the hyborian age, alternate history, historical fantasy and the more extreme the sugestion made by Deuce in the first posts of a ciclical vision of history by Howard with a civilization with a cultural and technological level of the XV century, more or less, falling in barbarism and evolving into real history... by the way I think I read somewhere, that the idea of Howard creating Conan the cimmerian was to write historical adventures without doing historical research, isn't it?

I hope you excuse my poor english...

[Pictish Scout]

by the way I think I read somewhere, that the idea of Howard creating Conan the cimmerian was to write historical adventures without doing historical research, isn't it?

Historical research is strongly present in Robert Howard fantasy, especially in Conan. This still makes his work unique today.

I think he truly loved history and research history but chose “fantasy” in Conan for more creative freedom and for commercial reasons, but not laziness

[RJMooreII]

by the way I think I read somewhere, that the idea of Howard creating Conan the cimmerian was to write historical adventures without doing historical research, isn't it?

Historical research is strongly present in Robert Howard fantasy, especially in Conan. This still makes his work unique today.

I think he truly loved history and research history but chose “fantasy” in Conan for more creative freedom and for commercial reasons, but not laziness

Oh man, I just love the air of historicity and anthropology that Howard lends his writing. It is just like going on a tour with Gilgamesh. Such a creative world. A my friend Bob Price said, H.P. Lovecraft didn't create a complete mythology but he knew what a mythology would look like: complicated, obscurantist, inconsistent, etc. Howard has done the same thing, but with the Hero-King saga of the ancient world. Having an understanding of the real thing he composes a modern version of it, but completely out of his personal whims as to what history and legend to blend in. Great stuff.

I think Moorcock actually Tropes over himself, in avoiding Hyborian ambiguity he does get into a kind of 'aligned and organized' cosmos in his Eternal Champion books, whereas Conan has the element of Hodgson and Lovecraft, and really of any kind of nihilistic materialist; that whether or not there are gods out there it's just another wretched thing that can probably kill you if it takes a mind to.

Edited by RJMooreII, 15 April 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[constantine]

About the names, you have mentioned the shakesperian theory very correct in my opinion but you haven't mention, at elast not as much as the people names, the names of geographical issues, take for instance Argos, Messantia, Aquilonia, Tabor, Tarantia, Numalia, Corinthia... for being indiferent or agressive with classical issues he took a lot of toponyms from the greeks and the romans

ollonois

The choices for toponyms were probably made in the same manner as for the personal names: they tend to give a European feel to the Hyborian kingdoms. Concerning Howard's indifference for the Classical era, it has already been dealt extensively. A further point...

The as REH wrote a lot of medieval historical stories and almost no classical ones the hyborian kingdoms must be taken as medieval Europe thing is a kind of phalacy for me since these tales were set most of them in the near east in the time of the Crusades not in Europe

ollonois

Howard submitted most of these tales for publishing to the Oriental Stories magazine. Obviously, his medieval European heroes had to be in the East (Outremer etc.). Apparently, he did not write about Classical Antiquity heroes in the ancient Near East.

BTW, ''The Shadow of the Vulture'' is placed in Central Europe and again, it is a contest between Europeans and Easterners. It was published in the Magic Carpet. Evidently, Howard was interested in this theme.

Incidentally, he did not make the same effort to put down tales in the Classical Antiquity, a good indication of his preferences.

[constantine]

A good thing you forwarded Redondo's illustration Ollonois. The depiction of the Aquilonians shows how remote these images are from REH's descriptions and it is further evidence of the accumulative effects of Classical Antiquity-oriented illustrations.

[ollonois]

Other excellent illustration of Nestor Redondo in the same saga but this is slightly more medieval for me with a touch of eastern Europe, Poland or Russia

[constantine]

Apart from the tower in the background, I don't see anything medieval in the last illustration.