413 replies to this topic

[constantine]

Wow. I don’t know where that is coming from. The fact that I keep responding to your posts should give you some indication of my respect for your intellectual input. I have even made note of that on more than one occasion, and have also been in agreement with some of your views, in spite of the above. ( I find it a little irksome though when you act as a self styled representative and go on about me not giving due notice or attention to other posts, irrespective of my included quotes. If someone feels I have ignored them I am sure they can let me know themselves ).

Bront

That comes from the fact that you have not paid any serious attention to the contents of numerous posts about the topic. Otherwise, you would be more careful with some of your comments or your already answered to the full arguments. Despite your seeming courtesy, you do not show real appreciation for much that has been written and try to bypass it just to present your pro-antiquity views as of equal strength with those that support a predominantly medieval character for the Hyborian kingdoms. I say that without being anyone's representative and having defended myself the existence of certain elements of Classical Antiquity in the Hyborian nations.

I don’t pretend to know it all. I don't. In fact I am doing a little cursory research through some old books just to find out if the inclusion of horned helmets in TFGD was due to ignorance on REH’s part, or a bit of literary licence, well, there is magic in the work so why not.

I am happy that some of the posts are discussing the Ostrogothic and Visogothic Kings as I did find inspiration for Conan from that particular twilight Roman Empire and especially Dark Ages era. I was aware of Max the Thrax, but was not sure if he made the Barbarian ( probably depends on who are asking ).

Bront

Changing the subject, aren't we? You may well be right or wrong about horned helmets, but this is totally irrelevant with the character of the Hyborian culture and your perception of it.

And as a matter of fact, nobody discussed the Gothic kings as inspiration for Conan, which again shows how much attention you paid to these immediately previous posts. This is yet another presumptuus and wrong conclusion of yours as the Gothic kings did not seize the imperial throne, but supplanted Roman rule in, and eventually conquered parts of, the empire; thus, a most probable inspiration for the Hyborian conquest of Acheron and not Conan's usurpation of the Aquilonian throne. Read again the posts about Germanics as a possible inspiration for Conan; the Gothic kings were almost certainly not.

Nabonidus comes across almost like a Hellenic scientist or engineer, someone that might have made the Antikythera mechanism. Conan, ignorant of such things, hailing from the distant north, a little like the Greco-Roman ancient viewpoints concerning outlanders. Contrast REH’s soft, decadent rogue like civilised archetypes wit the straight forward stoic rustic outsider. I can quote Strabo and others, but you probably get my drift. REH’s barbarians waiting to move against the civilised and through new impetus pick up art and sophistication.

REH used this device. Cimmerians and Norheimer are a cross between prehistoric, iron age and Dark Age Europeans. In reality you had historical iron age Celts that where quite inventive, artistic and innovative with war chariots, mathematical sophistication in the Coligny Calendar, Gallic vallus harvesting machine that amazed the Romans and lasted until the 3^rd Century AD – reinvented 1831. Hell, they probably built that device for Nabonidus. In REH’s time his views of the Iron Age Celts was based on Hellenic and Roman writers, as well as the more favourable Irish tales, Cu Chulainn. It is about contrasts and workable stereotypes. I mean, when I pick up REH I don’t want to be told that a Pict could have done a Picasso.
I will close with this classical map of the known world. Look at where Hyperborea is located. Look at the centre and notice that Africa does not extend very far south of the Egypt. Ancient maps of the northern , western and eastern barbarian lands circling the warm centre of the Mediterranean civilisation is very reminiscent of the Hyborian Age

Bront

I could very well consider Nabonidus (as an engineer/scientist) a good example of antiquity element. But he appears also as an archetypal corrupt high priest/bishop of the Middle Ages as well as a succesful version of Roger Bacon. And further, excepting Conan whom we often find in civilized acoutrements, what do the Cimmerian or Nordheimir barbarians have to do with the culture of Conan's contemporary Hyborian kingdoms? We are talking about the Hyborian civilization here, so why do you keep mentioning other cultures? You've been repeatedly doing this from your first post on this topic and it is an additional indication of your superficial attention to the earlier posts of this thread.

As for the map, what are you trying to prove? Everyone acquainted with the Hyborian Age world (i.e. most forum members) knows that Howard superimposed the map of Hyboria on the real map of Europe, more or less. This has little to do with his descriptions of the Hyborian states. Even maritime Argos is more based on medieval Italian cities than ancient Greece. Corinthia might be closer to the latter and not because of its geographical position.

REH created a certain Puritan perfect for the silver screen ( really loved that Solomon Kane flick, hope a sequel is on its way ).

REH's Puritan may be perfect for the screen, but the one I saw was not REH's and certainly not a Puritan. Of course, these are trivia to some...

Edited by constantine, 08 February 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[theagenes]

I would suggest that the religion of Mitra is another example of REH's using a name from antiquity, but haviing substance come from the middle ages. The name obviously comes from the cult of Mithra, but most if not all of the characteristics of the religion are reminiscent of the medieval Christian Church.

[theagenes]

On Nabonides, I think you could go beyond even Bacon make a case that he is reminscent of a Da Vinci entangled in the political intrigues of the 15th-16th century Italian city-states. The city-state in which Rogue takes place could be based as much on Florence or Venice as an ancient Greek polis.

[Kortoso]

I would say that the Hyborian Age is (obviously) neither medieval or ancient (by which I assume we mean classical).

But I can see where he was inspired to borrow from elements from these times.

It is presented as a pre-classical period, with apparent characteristics of both classical and medieval periods. Words that the author chose to describe the Hyborian Age were chosen for their familiarity and ability to help paint a quick picture.

If you're still thinking that this is a medieval world or a classical (Greco-Roman) world, then you're missing out. If anything, REH is depicting a world that the classical civlizations developed from.

The case of Mitra is a good example; he is suggesting that the Mitra of the Vedas, Zarathustrans and the Romans was derived from the Hyborian religion.

[constantine]

Theagenes, I believe Mitra was/is an Indo-Aryan deity. Still, I agree that the creed of his Hyborian namesake is a conflation of the cult of Mithra and medieval Christianity. There are, of course, some differencies: this religion seems more henotheistic than monotheistic, it includes oracles (therefore divination) and when things go rough, at least some priests use magic (some form of apotropaic, ''white'' magic I would speculate from what we see in THotD).

As for your comment on Nabonidus (historically a Babylonian king, your Greek version looks more Hyborian), I don't disagree, although I would first think of Bacon since he was a member of the priesthood as well. On the city, you are right as well.

[theagenes]

I'll admit though, I may be biased as I just finished watching the first season of The Borgias.

[Kortoso]

Theagenes, I believe Mitra was/is an Indo-Aryan deity. Still, I agree that the creed of his Hyborian namesake is a conflation of the cult of Mithra and medieval Christianity. There are, of course, some differencies: this religion seems more henotheistic than monotheistic, it includes oracles (therefore divination) and when things go rough, at least some priests use magic (some form of apotropaic, ''white'' magic I would speculate from what we see in THotD).

...

Henotheism! Gratified to speak to someone who knows that word.
Would you care to follow up in this thread:
http://www.conan.com...ra&fromsearch=1

[constantine]

It is presented as a pre-classical period, with apparent characteristics of both classical and medieval periods. Words that the author chose to describe the Hyborian Age were chosen for their familiarity and ability to help paint a quick picture.

If you're still thinking that this is a medieval world or a classical (Greco-Roman) world, then you're missing out. If anything, REH is depicting a world that the classical civlizations developed from.

The case of Mitra is a good example; he is suggesting that the Mitra of the Vedas, Zarathustrans and the Romans was derived from the Hyborian religion.

Kortoso

Kortoso, I disagree with you. First, the Hyborian Age in Conan's time (the issue at hand) is not a pre-classical period at all, since it is not followed by any classical era. The Hyborian civilization is already at its high-point (REH's letter to Miller) and after some time it falls (admittedly, in a unique way). Calling it pre-classical is a definite misuse of the term. The supposed survival of numerous names in the historical pre-classical (sic), classical and medieval period has little to do with the culture of the Hyborian kingdoms as it has been explained in earlier posts.

Obviously, there is a goodly number of non-medieval elements in this civilization, including from Classical Antiquity. But the predominant ones come by far from the historical European Middle Ages, a fact beyond any dispute for anyone who has read Howard's tales carefully. I certainly won't reiterate the mass of the arguments in favour of this view. And I agree that it is not very correct to call this culture clear-cut medieval. But if one has to portray the civilization of the Hyborian kingdoms (with the partial exception of Koth and the sub-Kothic kingdoms), the atmosphere and feeling conveyed would be close to the High and Late Middle Ages.

And yes, the case of Mitra is a good example. Despite the historical origins of this creed (and the allusions to its Hyborian foundations), the dominant religion of the Hyborians is closest to medieval (especially western) Christianity.

I will check the thread you gave as well. It is an intriguing topic.

Edited by constantine, 07 February 2012 - 11:06 PM.

[constantine]

In all honesty Bront I am not trying to offend you, but do you have a problem in concentration while reading? This is a very sincere question and NO offense intended at all.

Why be pro antiquity or pro medieval ? The Hyborian Age has both elements. I was simply talking about the Greco-Roman mindset in the context of the Hyborian Age.

Bront

Actually, you were specifically arguing for a predominance of Greco-Roman themes in the framework of the Hyborian civilization and the Hyborian Age as a whole, despite the massive input and solid arguments against this view in this thread (and others).

]I never really considered the religion of Mitra all too much, but thinking about the cult of Mithras ( I think I read somewhere that it was popular amongst Roman Legionnaires ) I can almost see a correlation between the ancient polytheistic of the ancients and medieval monotheistic belief systems.[/size]

What, if anything, in the Hyborian religion of Mitra has to do with ancient polytheism? A few classical ''touches'' maybe, but this correlation you speak of doesn't come from REH's work. You seem to have never considered this religion at all.

That would make sense when you consider that the Hyborians and the northern/pict barbarians of the Hyborian Age are also the ancestors of the Aryan peoples.

I must have been reading a different THA. Howard explicitly described the Nordics and Cimmerians - and absolutely not the Hyborians and Picts - as (supposed) ancestors to his Aryans.

]Funny, the other day I finished re-reading the THOTD and followed a line from Aquilonia to Argos to Khemi ( loved the ghouls, and the girls, especially Akivasha ). Now I found that Aquilonia, in that yarn anyway, would be the closest example to what may be a high medieval comparison, especially in terms or arm and armour.[/size]

Only in that yarn? You had once mentioned you have been into Conan for some years, but I take it you have not read TSC, with the opposing armies and the Agincourt-like battle of Shamar coming straight out of a medieval context. BTW, did Nemedia not appear medieval-inspired to you ? There are numerous examples sited in the previous posts and drawn specifically from THotD.

O.K. now the Asura thing was Stygian

This must really be a joke. Asura is the main deity of Vendhya and in THotD Hadrathus, high priest of Asura in Aquilonia emphatically denies any connection with the Stygian cults.

Agreed, when the Hyborian Age is taken as a whole. That’s just it I suppose, with so much thrown into the bowl we try to fit certain historical periods over vast tracts.

Actually, no, we try to fit historical periods over very specific and not vast tracks. And it is more of a detection of influences that shape cultures than anything else.

Edited by constantine, 08 February 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[constantine]

I may be forthright, but I have replied on all issues directly. Disagreement on any number of points is not an offense as long one supports properly one's views. I have mentioned far too many examples to show you that you have given a superficial attention on earlier posts and in Howard's work as well. Not need to repeat them (Aryans and Asura are the most recent, glaring cases). The issue at hand is not some members' superiority of opinion compared to others, but the portrayal of an imaginary world coming from the literary work of Robert E. Howard. And this is not trifle. I expect that most Tolkien fans (including me) would not have taken lightly a gross misrepresentation of Middle Earth, in the manner that REH's Hyboria (and Conan) has been treated by illustrators, comic designers and movie makers for so long.That's the main cause behind this heated debate.

Of course, a person's imagination is not to be dominated. One may construe his own images from a literary piece and that's perfectly ok. But it is one thing for one to prefer visualising the Hyborian culture as antiquity-oriented and a totally different thing to claim that Howard's yarns actually portray Hyborian civilization mostly as a counterpart from Classical Antiquity. The last view is simply baseless.

The prime inspiration for the Hyborian culture, not the Hyborian Age cultures as a whole, comes from the High and Late Middle Ages of European history. The evidence is overwhelming and has been exhibited by many forum members in this and other threads. If, after all this, one continues to support REH's portrayal of Hyboria as influenced for the greater, or even equal, part from Classical Antiquity, this means that he directly ignores the aforementioned evidence and those who brought it forward. In the end, it turns into disregard towards well-established frames of historical scholarship. I mean, what would one call a fundamentally feudal society with its components grounded on the Middle Ages? A product of Classical Antiquity?

I wil quote again my view on the character of the Hyborian civilization:

Obviously, there is a goodly number of non-medieval elements in this civilization, including from Classical Antiquity. But the predominant ones come by far from the historical European Middle Ages, a fact beyond any dispute for anyone who has read Howard's tales carefully. I certainly won't reiterate the mass of the arguments in favour of this view. And I agree that it is not very correct to call this culture clear-cut medieval. But if one has to portray the civilization of the Hyborian kingdoms (with the partial exception of Koth and the sub-Kothic kingdoms), the atmosphere and feeling conveyed would be close to the High and Late Middle Ages.

[Ironhand]

It might be useful at this point to revisit the original reason for this discussion of classical/Greco-Roman vs. medieval/feudal. It was a reaction to the practice of illustrators in depicting Conan's Hyborian environment as overwhelmingly Classical/Greco-Roman. Cultures outside of the Hyborian subcontinent don't even count in this discussion. As for the Hyborian region, even if there were minor Classical elements in Hyborian culture, it's not enough to justify illustrations that portray Hyborian as overwhelmingly Classical, when REH's texts indicate it was, if anything, overwhelmingly Medieval.

[deuce]

Interesting the litle controversy about when end the midle ages, traditionally it had been said that it was in 1453 with the fall of Constantinople but some people like you say about REH consider the XVI century to be medieval and some people even extent the period to 1648, the end of the thirty years war, considered a medieval war in some publications, what do you think? are you with REH in consider the XVI century to be medieval?

Good question, Ollonois.

One problem is that no "age" somehow sweeps across Planet Earth in a day. There is definite "lag" in there. "Stone Age" tribes still existed until a few decades ago (and may even exist today). What "age" do THEY belong to?

When in college, I always considered the Reconquista/Columbus' First Voyage as the demarcation between the Medieval and Renaissance/Modern periods. Later, I decided the fall of Constantinople made more sense. Now? It's complicated.

In this landmark essay by the late Steve Tompkins ( http://www.robert-e-...nGryphons1.html ), Alfred Kazin is cited as calling the Puritan occupation of "New England" an "American Middle Ages".

Henry VIII (Elizabeth I's father) was injured in a jousting bout. Plate armor was still being worn on European battlefields into the 19th century. American Revolutionary file-closers were armed with halberds and swords.

I think it's hard to call a period where witches and heretics were still being burnt/hanged "Renaissance" or "Modern". So, like Robert E. Howard, I don't have a real problem calling the entire epoch from the Gothic sack of Rome in 410AD to (roughly) the end of the Thirty Years' War "Medieval".

By the way, why the fixation of sequencial art with depicting the hyborian age as a classical one? is easy to draw classical elements or clothes than those for the midle ages?

Having known a LOT of professional/aspiring artists (I, myself, almost went in for an art major), I'd say a great deal can be laid squarely on laziness/lack of reference material. Art students are absolutely inundated with Classical art/references. Understandable, since the art from Classical times is generally better. I would say that depicting "Classical" garb probably IS easier than doing the same for Medievalesque clothing/armour.

However, Osprey Books and artist extraordinaire, Angus McBride have made things MUCH easier for those seeking to illustrate authentic (and COOL) Medieval garb/armour. Check out these links:


http://www.1zoom.net.../104636/z238.2/


http://www.google.co...1t:429,r:4,s:12

http://www.google.co...s:0&tx=84&ty=86


http://www.myarmoury...ic.php?p=190722

Nothing "sissified" or "boring" about those.

[deuce]

It might be useful at this point to revisit the original reason for this discussion of classical/Greco-Roman vs. medieval/feudal. It was a reaction to the practice of illustrators in depicting Conan's Hyborian environment as overwhelmingly Classical/Greco-Roman. Cultures outside of the Hyborian subcontinent don't even count in this discussion. As for the Hyborian region, even if there were minor Classical elements in Hyborian culture, it's not enough to justify illustrations that portray Hyborian as overwhelmingly Classical, when REH's texts indicate it was, if anything, overwhelmingly Medieval.

Well said, Ironhand.

[constantine]

AFAIK the Middle Ages end at the closing of the 15th c., according to the established historical periodicization. Their beginning could be placed from the (late) 5th c. AD (that's where I stand) to the early 7th (the advent of Islam), more or less. This last view supports an extended Late Antiquity. In any case, it does not affect how a modern reader of REH should perceive Hyboria.

It is clear that Howard created the Eurocentric, civilized Hyborian kingdoms with a medieval basis (his favourite) and then added certain elements which he fancied from other periods, mainly but not exclusively from Greco-Roman antiquity. The Hyborian nomenclature should not be connected with the latter. Ironhand has noted a strong Shakespearean influence on Howard, which, in the case of name-choices, further enhances the unique character of Hyboria: recognisable, but otherwise not an alternate-history medieval one (i.e. simply copied from history books).

Koth (and by default the sub-Kothic kingdoms as well) is an interesting example. At the first reading about it, one has an impression of antiquity elements merged with a medieval culture. Further, Koth has been justifiably described as inspired from the Byzantine empire (this was the first connection I made as well). But it is not just a replica. Unlike the other Hyborian kingdoms, there is a polytheistic religion centred on the goddess Ishtar, nearly the same with that of Shem (and it need not have been an adoption of the Shemitish deities, maybe the other way around). Eastern, Shemitish and Stygian influences have also been introduced in Kothic culture. Even the place names have different origins compared from the rest of Hyboria (Syrian ones, like Shamu, Khorshemish, Khauran, plus the name Koth from HPL's TQoUK). Thus, although we can detect historical sources of inspiration for Koth, this Hyborian kingdom is not a cheap imitation of its most probable counterpart, but it stands on its own in Howard's world of sword & sorcery. It is, of course, a partial exception when compared with the rest of the Hyborian nations.

We should add to those who distorted the image of Hyborian Age the vast majority of the pastiche writers who turned it into an antiquity-oriented, high-fantasy world. Starting with LSdC, most of them failed to understand REH's models in creating it. I think this has more to do with his inclusion of extensive barbarian and Near Eastern cultures than with Howard's portrayal of the Hyborian kingdoms themselves. Especially, it is having the barbarians bordering the latter and constituting a threat to their civilization that brings to mind the ancient world far more than the Middle Ages. After having a further overstressing of Classical elements in Hyboria the early pastiche writers (who were considered to have been closer to REH's vision) established a precedent and an image that was adopted by those who followed, whether other writers, illustrators and movie makers.

Finally, glamour and decadence seem far more connected with antiquity in popular culture. I suppose others may have arrived to the same conclusions...

Edited by constantine, 12 February 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[Ironhand]

The Hyborian Age is prehistoric meets Celtic iron age, meets the Viking Dark Ages

Yes, that's going on in part of the Hyborian Age. Elsewhere we have Egypt, (Turko-) Persia, Bedouins, Cossacks, India, and the Middle Ages. All at the same time.

Edited by Ironhand, 11 February 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[johnnypt]

Back on topic... Instead of trying to posthumously mind-read Robert E. Howard's views on the Middle Ages, perhaps you'd like to hear them straight from the man himself? Let's look at what he had to say in a letter to HPL (July 13, 1932)...

"Some day I must try to study the ancient Grecian world. It's always seemed so vague and unreal to me, in contrast to the roaring, brawling, drunken, bawdy chaos of the Middle Ages in which my instincts have always been fixed. When I go beyond the Middle Ages, my instincts veer to Assyria and Babylon, where again I seem to visualize a bloody, drunken brawling, lecherous medley. My vague instincts towards classical Greece go no further than a dim impression of calm, serene white marble statues in a slumbering grove. Though I know the people of the classic times must have wenched and brawled and guzzled like any other people, but I can not conceive of them. The first mythology I ever read was that of Greece, but even then it seemed apart and impersonal..."

That was written MONTHS after REH had already created Conan and the Hyborian Age. Yet, Robert E. Howard still had to "try to study the ancient Grecian world". How much influence could the "Classical world" have had on Howard if he still needed to "try to study" it? However, he had a VERY firm vision of the Middle Ages as being a "roaring, brawling, drunken, bawdy chaos". Sounds a LOT like the Hyborian kingdoms to me. REH felt an "instinctive connection" to the Middle Ages and nothing but apathy for Greek/Hellenistic times.

The only story I ever thought was vaguely Greco-Roman was God In The Bowl. Greek temples mixed with Egyptian gods, that kind of thing. Considering this letter was written after he'd done GitB, maybe I should have some different images in my head. Otherwise, everything else to me is either Babylonian/Mesopotamian ancient or Dark Ages/medieval, with a little revolutionary upstate NY in BtBR.

[deuce]

Back on topic... Instead of trying to posthumously mind-read Robert E. Howard's views on the Middle Ages, perhaps you'd like to hear them straight from the man himself? Let's look at what he had to say in a letter to HPL (July 13, 1932)...

"Some day I must try to study the ancient Grecian world. It's always seemed so vague and unreal to me, in contrast to the roaring, brawling, drunken, bawdy chaos of the Middle Ages in which my instincts have always been fixed. When I go beyond the Middle Ages, my instincts veer to Assyria and Babylon, where again I seem to visualize a bloody, drunken brawling, lecherous medley. My vague instincts towards classical Greece go no further than a dim impression of calm, serene white marble statues in a slumbering grove. Though I know the people of the classic times must have wenched and brawled and guzzled like any other people, but I can not conceive of them. The first mythology I ever read was that of Greece, but even then it seemed apart and impersonal..."

That was written MONTHS after REH had already created Conan and the Hyborian Age. Yet, Robert E. Howard still had to "try to study the ancient Grecian world". How much influence could the "Classical world" have had on Howard if he still needed to "try to study" it? However, he had a VERY firm vision of the Middle Ages as being a "roaring, brawling, drunken, bawdy chaos". Sounds a LOT like the Hyborian kingdoms to me. REH felt an "instinctive connection" to the Middle Ages and nothing but apathy for Greek/Hellenistic times.

The only story I ever thought was vaguely Greco-Roman was God In The Bowl. Greek temples mixed with Egyptian gods, that kind of thing. Considering this letter was written after he'd done GitB, maybe I should have some different images in my head. Otherwise, everything else to me is either Babylonian/Mesopotamian ancient or Dark Ages/medieval, with a little revolutionary upstate NY in BtBR.

I need to run, but I'll say in passing that (IMO) the "Romanesque" elements are more a matter of expediency than anything. As Mark Finn has pointed out, it seems to have been inspired by police corruption/brutality in REH's home state of Texas. Essentially, that yarn is a "locked room/haunted house" mystery transplanted to Nemedia. When we see the entirety of Nemedia mobilized in THotD, there's nothing "Romanesque" about it.