22 replies to this topic

[Cheomesh]

The only thing I can remember Howard telling us about Brythunia was that their women were pretty and blonde. I think in one of his essays he mentions they were rolled over by the Hyrkanians at some point after Conan's death. Other than that, nothing.

So what have the non-Howard tales created for us? I have a player in my Conan GURPS game that is a Brythunian, but little is known so we keep it vague. Return to the Road of Kings has a few things, and Faith and Furvor mentions they have pagans, but that might be a flight of fancy from the author.

M.

[Kortoso]

Let's squeeze what we can out of the canon first before moving on to the pastiches.

[deuce]

Let's squeeze what we can out of the canon first before moving on to the pastiches.

Agreed. There is PLENTY that REH said about the Hyborian kingdoms in general that would delineate Brythunia/Brythunians. In addition, there ARE clues in the canon. Since I just had most of my Howards destroyed by floodwater, I'll have to get back to this. I'll just say that (according to REH) the Brythunians tend to tawny hair, they're CIVILIZED, they worship Mitra and cavalry is the main arm of their military. They're NOT "Celtic" and Jordan was wrong (according to REH) when he depicted them.

[ollonois]

This is one of the more intriguing issues related to hyborian kingdoms, according to the essay, The hyborian age, the brythunians later gave place to the britons, isn't it? but other writers and readers say its real world counterpart was Poland and Lithuania in the feudal times!!!??? then??? the polish thing goes far beyond when in The official handbook of the Conan universe published by Marvel and written by Alan Zelenetz he told about the brythunians guys being the subject of jokes in the hyborian world...

[Lunatic]

So they are the polish/english hyborians joke about?

[Kortoso]

IMHO, the only source for a Brythunian-Polish correspondence is the map overlay, that is, it is positioned on the map over modern Poland. I wouldn't attach any significance to that.

The Brythunians became Britons only after the Aesir invaded Brythunia, so it's a stretch to even equate the Brythunians of Conan's time with historical Britons.

[deuce]

IMHO, the only source for a Brythunian-Polish correspondence is the map overlay, that is, it is positioned on the map over modern Poland. I wouldn't attach any significance to that.

The Brythunians became Britons only after the Aesir invaded Brythunia, so it's a stretch to even equate the Brythunians of Conan's time with historical Britons.

Exactly, the HYBORIAN Brythunians were basically wiped out. The Brythunian Aesir are the ones who went on to become the Brythonic Celts of known history.

The Hyborian Brythunians probably did have a culture that vaguely resembled medieval Poland/Ukraine. The terrain/climate/tech level/general cultural orientation is about the same. However, the names we have ("Aratus" and "Natala") don't tend to point to anything strongly Slavic (unlike Hyperborea).

[ACmH]

Is it possible (and when I say possible I mean that it makes sense in context) that the name Brythunia somehow remained as Prytnia/Old Prussia, another people that was wiped out and whose name was taken by the wipers (come think of it, this may be where Howard got the idea)

Edited by ACmH, 15 June 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[docpod]

Natalia is a common name in Russia. Natala might be a variation of that. No doubt there is some ancient or archaic form of Natalie that REH encountered.

Morgan

[deuce]

Is it possible (and when I say possible I mean that it makes sense in context) that the name Brythunia somehow remained as Prytnia/Old Prussia, another people that was wiped out and whose name was taken by the wipers (come think of it, this may be where Howard got the idea)

Interesting idea. I'd forgotten about the actual Baltic Prussian name for Prussia. However, Brythunia isn't the only place that got name-swiped. The Nemedian Aesir did the same thing. If anything, I'd say "Ruthenia" (after the obvious "Brython/Brythonic") possibly had a slight influence on the naming of the Hyborian kingdom.

After a lot of thought and looking at what REH wrote in his various notes and "The Hyborian Age", I'd say that if there was a "Hyborian Prussia" it would be the Border Kingdom.

[ACmH]

Is it possible (and when I say possible I mean that it makes sense in context) that the name Brythunia somehow remained as Prytnia/Old Prussia, another people that was wiped out and whose name was taken by the wipers (come think of it, this may be where Howard got the idea)

Interesting idea. I'd forgotten about the actual Baltic Prussian name for Prussia. However, Brythunia isn't the only place that got name-swiped. The Nemedian Aesir did the same thing. If anything, I'd say "Ruthenia" (after the obvious "Brython/Brythonic") possibly had a slight influence on the naming of the Hyborian kingdom.

After a lot of thought and looking at what REH wrote in his various notes and "The Hyborian Age", I'd say that if there was a "Hyborian Prussia" it would be the Border Kingdom.

(P)R[y/u]TH[e/u]NIA? That would be also an interesting idea, and not too distant from mine if you think that the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at its height included both Old Prussia and Ruthenia. Also, IIRC Old Prussian was a pre-indoeuropean language OR a very ancient baltic one like Lithianian, so it would fit into a pre-Aryan (i.e. pre-Indoeruropean)/Hyborean language.
Was Old Prussian the language of Aquilonia? Or was it Iberian, another pre-indoeropean language that strangely sounds like Hyborean?
Uhmmmm....

EDIT: why the Border Kingdoms? I thought that was a sort of experiment by REH to put a sort of "Western Frontier" into the Hyborian world.....

Edited by ACmH, 20 June 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[deuce]

(P)R[y/u]TH[e/u]NIA? That would be also an interesting idea, and not too distant from mine if you think that the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at its height included both Old Prussia and Ruthenia.

Here's something I posted on an old thread:

"The resemblance betwixt "Ruthenian" and "Brythunian" is striking. However, one needs to keep in mind that "Ruthenian" is a West European term that was based off the Ruteni, who were a Celtic tribe of Brittany. The same with "Galicia". Well into the 1970's, it was thought that the name referred to former Celtic inhabitants (the Ukrainian form is Halychyna). "

Also, IIRC Old Prussian was a pre-indoeuropean language OR a very ancient baltic one like Lithianian, so it would fit into a pre-Aryan (i.e. pre-Indoeruropean)/Hyborean language.

I reread Malory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans about two weeks ago. Old Prussian was a Baltic/Indo-European language. It survived up through medieval times, so I'm not sure "ancient" is very applicable. It was a very conservative member of the Indo-European family, however.

Was Old Prussian the language of Aquilonia? Or was it Iberian, another pre-indoeropean language that strangely sounds like Hyborean?
Uhmmmm....

A thread discussing possible linguistic candidates for "surviving Aquilonians" can be found here:

http://www.conan.com...p?showtopic=790

Feel free to discuss there.

EDIT: why the Border Kingdoms? I thought that was a sort of experiment by REH to put a sort of "Western Frontier" into the Hyborian world.....

The "Border Kingdom" thread is here:

http://www.conan.com...4267&hl=kingdom

[RJMooreII]

In Search of the Indo-Europeans

MaLLory, dual Ls. I only bring this up because the book happens to be sitting in front of me, lol.

[constantine]

Brythunia would appear as a counterpart to a basically western/central European medieval kingdom to me. Howard's letter to Miller may leave implications for the political status in Brythunia, apart from the obvious case of Corinthia. Maybe a more fractious kingdom than Aquilonia or Nemedia?

[deuce]

In Search of the Indo-Europeans

MaLLory, dual Ls. I only bring this up because the book happens to be sitting in front of me, lol.

Quite right. Malory wrote La Mort d'Arthur.

[deuce]

Brythunia would appear as a counterpart to a basically western/central European medieval kingdom to me. Howard's letter to Miller may leave implications for the political status in Brythunia, apart from the obvious case of Corinthia. Maybe a more fractious kingdom than Aquilonia or Nemedia?

If I had to bet, I'd definitely go with "fractious".

Another thing to keep in mind is that there was never an "Elder" Brythunia (unlike Hyperborea, Corinth, Koth and Ophir). Perhaps "never" is too strong, but there's no indication from REH that I know of.

It appears that (possibly) Brythunia was the staging ground for the Hyborian tribes that conquered the "Elder" Hyborian kingdoms like Koth and then went on to sack Kuthchemes and points eastward.

Finally, Taranaich did a mod for Total War 2 featuring Brythunia. I did a small bit of consulting on that. I think T went a little overboard in the "Briton/Cymru" department, but,hey, it's his mod.

Here's a link:

http://forums.totalw...om-of-Brythunia.

[Albannach]

I'd take a guess that with the Anglo-Saxon connections from Hyborian history Brythunia would be a dark age English like Kingdom with Germanic influences. Perhaps even slightly Arthurian.

[constantine]

I'd take a guess that with the Anglo-Saxon connections from Hyborian history Brythunia would be a dark age English like Kingdom with Germanic influences. Perhaps even slightly Arthurian.

What are these ''Anglo-Saxon connections'' concerning Brythunia? When most of the Hyborian kingdoms appear inspired mostly from the High to Late Middle Ages, I'd suggest a similar analogy (a la Hyboria, of course) for Brythunia as well.

[Albannach]

I'd take a guess that with the Anglo-Saxon connections from Hyborian history Brythunia would be a dark age English like Kingdom with Germanic influences. Perhaps even slightly Arthurian.

What are these ''Anglo-Saxon connections'' concerning Brythunia? When most of the Hyborian kingdoms appear inspired mostly from the High to Late Middle Ages, I'd suggest a similar analogy (a la Hyboria, of course) for Brythunia as well.

I'd take a guess that with the Anglo-Saxon connections from Hyborian history Brythunia would be a dark age English like Kingdom with Germanic influences. Perhaps even slightly Arthurian.

What are these ''Anglo-Saxon connections'' concerning Brythunia? When most of the Hyborian kingdoms appear inspired mostly from the High to Late Middle Ages, I'd suggest a similar analogy (a la Hyboria, of course) for Brythunia as well.

I think I was referring to this,

http://conan.wikia.c...ki/Hyborian_Age

but upon reading some other parts I'm not sure it's anything to go by. I recall from Howard's essey mostly all northern Europeans being some direct decendent or interchangable mixed variation of Vanir, Aesir and/or Cimmerian.

[ollonois]

constantine:

I'd suggest a similar analogy (a la Hyboria, of course) for Brythunia as well.

where?

Edited by ollonois, 28 January 2013 - 07:20 PM.