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#41 deuce

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:43 AM

That's the relationship that Brian apparently saw as well, because that is how he writes their relationship. Different than the way I see them, however.


There's no evidence of Belit's "marial"/martial "power". She had to have Conan come running over to kill a (fictitious) serpent. Her Corsairs wouldn't have believed that if she was some "Mistress of the Sword". BELIT should've been the expert on killing tropical snakes, NOT Conan.

Looks like we need a "Belit" thread. :)

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#42 ZackDavisson

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:08 AM

We totally need a Belit thread!

And that snake thing ... that always annoyed me. Such an obvious rouse and Conan just runs along after it ...

#43 deuce

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:17 AM

We totally need a Belit thread!

And that snake thing ... that always annoyed me. Such an obvious ruse and Conan just runs along after it ...


I'm starting a Belit thing as we post.

WHY would Conan NOT tell Belit to "Kill it yourself!" unless he thought she couldn't deal with it? Her Corsairs knew her years longer and didn't say a word. Belit was no deft hand with a blade, just a superb archer. Nothing REH wrote contradicts that. Billy the KId was no good with a knife, either, from what I've read.

BTW, did you ever read the Belit reference in One Who Walked Alone?

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#44 ZackDavisson

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:26 AM

WHY would Conan NOT tell Belit to "Kill it yourself!" unless he thought she couldn't deal with it?



Because he just did what she asked without question. Which reinforces my point of subordinate role in the relationship.

Yarg! Save it for the Belit thread!

#45 deuce

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:38 AM


WHY would Conan NOT tell Belit to "Kill it yourself!" unless he thought she couldn't deal with it?



Because he just did what she asked without question. Which reinforces my point of subordinate role in the relationship.


The Corsairs believed it as well. REH never shows Belit with a sword in her hand. Howard never intended Belit to be a "Shemite Valeria in a Fur Bikini". There's nothing to indicate that.

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#46 Ironhand

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:14 AM

I AM HOLDING OUT FOR A MATING DANCE! What the Heqq is wrong with Paradox? I hope we will get a statement from Paradox regarding this FotBC pastiche. Has Paradox really thrown REH and Conan under the bus? That doesn't sound right, that Paradox would so micromanage a DH product.

Edited by Ironhand, 05 April 2012 - 06:19 AM.

"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
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#47 Ironhand

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:29 AM

As far as I'm concerned, they should just cancel the series right away, and start over. If they eke it through to the bitter end, I will cheer when the Flower of the Black Coast dies. If she can't do a Mating Dance, she doesn't deserve to live.

Edited by Ironhand, 05 April 2012 - 06:48 AM.

"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject

#48 Slashing Sword

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:44 AM

As far as I'm concerned, they should just cancel the series right away, and start over. If they eke it through to the bitter end, I will cheer when the Flower of the Black Coast dies.

Not while the money is coming in. Its the $$ that matters.

#49 Ironhand

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:50 AM


As far as I'm concerned, they should just cancel the series right away, and start over. If they eke it through to the bitter end, I will cheer when the Flower of the Black Coast dies.

Not while the money is coming in. Its the $$ that matters.

So they're no better than Milius. After all, CTB 82 made money.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject

#50 deuce

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:31 AM

Yarg! Save it for the Belit thread!


Either my PC or my server or the Forum just ate the entire topic/post. My guess is the server. I'll do it all over again (the topic means THAT much to me). However, I will save everything before hitting "post' this time.

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#51 deuce

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:34 AM

Which reinforces my point of subordinate role in the relationship.


So... who was "subordinate" in Macbeth/Lady Macbeth's relationship?

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#52 Ironhand

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:27 AM

judging by sales figures it is a total success. Brian's looser adaptation is much more popular than Truman's closer adaptation.

You mean Brian's loser adaptation? Might be a great pastiche, but as an adaptation it's a loser.

Wow, a whole sub-thread somehow materialized that wasn't there before. I'm going to quit posting for the night; tomorrow I'll be all fresh and full of energy, and maybe able to express how I really feel.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject

#53 Ironhand

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:41 AM

Actually, something occurred to me. Conan is often likened to a wolf by REH. In the wild, a large, successful wolf pack is often ruled by an alpha pair, a "king" and "queen". And it is often the alpha female who is dominant.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject

#54 KG Thunder

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:24 AM

So because a single paragraph/scene is gone, the whole series should be canceled? This is getting pretty ridiculous.
I get why the mating dance is important, and every time I read REH's Queen of the Black Coast I am struck by how little of Bêlit we actually see. The scene is vital because it tells us a lot about the character and sets up her and Conan's relationship.

However, this version that Wood is writing is going to take place over 2 years, and that is a lot of time for the characters and their relationships to develop and evolve. They don't have to just come out of the gate firing on all cylinders like in the original, because here there is more space and time to tell the story. I obviously prefer the original and am not implying that Wood is changing what he is changing to make it better, but if REH had expanded the story himself, who knows what he might have done differently?

For me personally, the two most important scenes that they CANNOT leave out are Conan and Bêlit discussing the gods, and the final scene/ending. The mating dance is just as important, but mostly because it tells us a lot about Bêlit and her hold on Conan, which again, now has more time to develop. REH did it in a single dramatic scene, and it worked great in a short story, but this version is expanded, and things will be different.

Wood is not going to tell us everything we need to know about Bêlit in the first 3 issues because that would make the rest of the expanded story more boring. My guess is he wants to keep her more mysterious for now, and I will try and keep an open mind and see where he's going with it, since I would rather see Conan and Bêlit develop slowly and more naturally over the course of this story arc than see them completely fleshed out in a few pages and then have the next 2 years just be different pastiche stories wherein the characters hardly grow at all. Character development is important. If we don't see the characters grow then we don't care what happens to them. It's basic story telling.

Of course I could be completely wrong, and Wood's intent may indeed be to turn Bêlit into just another submissive babe pining for Conan's affection. If that's the case then I too will rage and cry bloody murder, but whining and wailing that all is lost after only 2 issues is as ridiculous as walking out of a movie in the first 10 minutes and then ranting about how the whole movie sucks. Give it a chance, and if you can't do that then just don't read the comic.

#55 KG Thunder

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:33 AM

About their relationship, I never saw Bêlit as fiercer than Conan, but as his equal. Isn't that why she chose him to be her lover, after all? Two equally untamed forces coming together, her fire to his ice. The crew and the sea were hers, so obviously she was commander in that regard, but Conan never needed any directions in the bedroom... B)

#56 amster

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:13 PM

Where do I begin? When Conan and Belit first meet, despite the fact that he's turned on by her, the thought that goes through his mind is that if she reaches for her dagger he'll slap the piss out of her. After the mating dance, it's she who falls at his feet, and it's he who plants a kiss on her. REH even says that he was experienced enough with women to recognize that she was smitten with him, but he doesn't say that the opposite is the case (Roy Thomas suggested the theory that he initially agreed to sail with her more out of self-preservation than anything else). She's the one who talks romantically and professes her undying devotion to him, but he doesn't return the sentiment. Clearly he's the one with all the sexual experience, and knows that there are plenty of other women out there. When the decide to sail down the river of death, she runs the idea by him and he agrees - in other words, a partnership. She doesn't just say "this is what we're going to do", like Conan has no say in the matter. And what evidence is there that Conan was subordinate to her? He goes to kill a snake for her. Big deal. Of course he's not going to make her look weak in front of her crew by telling her to kill her own damn snake.
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--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--

#57 amster

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:28 PM


That's the relationship that Brian apparently saw as well, because that is how he writes their relationship. Different than the way I see them, however.


There's no evidence of Belit's "marial"/martial "power". She had to have Conan come running over to kill a (fictitious) serpent. Her Corsairs wouldn't have believed that if she was some "Mistress of the Sword". BELIT should've been the expert on killing tropical snakes, NOT Conan.

Looks like we need a "Belit" thread. :)


So what's your theory about this, Deuce?

Were I still in death and you fighting for life, I would come back from the abyss to aid you...

Was Belit just making an empty boast, having no actual skills with which to back it up? Then how do you explain this?

In one mad instant she was there--a tense white shape, vibrant with love fierce as a she-panther's. The dazed Cimmerian saw between him and the onrushing death, her lithe figure, shimmering like ivory beneath the moon; he saw the blaze of her dark eyes, the thick cluster of her burnished hair; her bosom heaved, her red lips were parted, she cried out sharp and ringing at the ring of steel as she thrust at the winged monster's breast.

...or did dying and coming back from the abyss somehow endow Belit with super-bad warrior woman skills? And how do you explain how a woman would makes her living out of making war could possibly get by indefinately with no martial skills? She's just totally dependent on her corsairs to protect her? In all her pirate raids, no Stygian or Kushite or Hyborian ever slipped by her bodyguards and took a swing at her? She had no contingency plan in the unlikely event that it might happen? That doesn't at all sound to me like the "Queen of Fire and Steel and Slaughter". Even assuming that she somehow had no skills when she first took command of the Tigress, if she didn't immediately start training with her warriors and learning a few skills of her own, then she was an inbecile and really not worthy of her crew's respect.
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--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--

#58 amster

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:37 PM



WHY would Conan NOT tell Belit to "Kill it yourself!" unless he thought she couldn't deal with it?



Because he just did what she asked without question. Which reinforces my point of subordinate role in the relationship.


The Corsairs believed it as well. REH never shows Belit with a sword in her hand. Howard never intended Belit to be a "Shemite Valeria in a Fur Bikini". There's nothing to indicate that.


Belit was more of a harcore gangsta pirate bitch on her worst day than Valeria was on her best day. Valeria commanded ZERO respect from her fellow pirates, and constantly had to fight then off from raping her.
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Money and muscle, that's what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money won't do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world won't enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it.
--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--

#59 amster

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:49 PM


We totally need a Belit thread!

And that snake thing ... that always annoyed me. Such an obvious ruse and Conan just runs along after it ...


I'm starting a Belit thing as we post.

WHY would Conan NOT tell Belit to "Kill it yourself!" unless he thought she couldn't deal with it? Her Corsairs knew her years longer and didn't say a word. Belit was no deft hand with a blade, just a superb archer. Nothing REH wrote contradicts that. Billy the KId was no good with a knife, either, from what I've read.


You're acting as if Belit had time on her hands to put a lot of thought into it. When she realized that the treasure might be booby trapped, she had a split second to come up with something, and just came up with the first thing that popped into her head. If she had thought before acting, Conan would be dead. The point was never the snake to begin with. The never even was a snake.
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Money and muscle, that's what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money won't do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world won't enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it.
--Robert E. Howard to Harold Preece, ca. June 1928--

#60 Fernando

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:53 PM



That's the relationship that Brian apparently saw as well, because that is how he writes their relationship. Different than the way I see them, however.


There's no evidence of Belit's "marial"/martial "power". She had to have Conan come running over to kill a (fictitious) serpent. Her Corsairs wouldn't have believed that if she was some "Mistress of the Sword". BELIT should've been the expert on killing tropical snakes, NOT Conan.

Looks like we need a "Belit" thread. :)


So what's your theory about this, Deuce?

Were I still in death and you fighting for life, I would come back from the abyss to aid you...

Was Belit just making an empty boast, having no actual skills with which to back it up? Then how do you explain this?

In one mad instant she was there--a tense white shape, vibrant with love fierce as a she-panther's. The dazed Cimmerian saw between him and the onrushing death, her lithe figure, shimmering like ivory beneath the moon; he saw the blaze of her dark eyes, the thick cluster of her burnished hair; her bosom heaved, her red lips were parted, she cried out sharp and ringing at the ring of steel as she thrust at the winged monster's breast.

...or did dying and coming back from the abyss somehow endow Belit with super-bad warrior woman skills? And how do you explain how a woman would makes her living out of making war could possibly get by indefinately with no martial skills? She's just totally dependent on her corsairs to protect her? In all her pirate raids, no Stygian or Kushite or Hyborian ever slipped by her bodyguards and took a swing at her? She had no contingency plan in the unlikely event that it might happen? That doesn't at all sound to me like the "Queen of Fire and Steel and Slaughter". Even assuming that she somehow had no skills when she first took command of the Tigress, if she didn't immediately start training with her warriors and learning a few skills of her own, then she was an inbecile and really not worthy of her crew's respect.


Well, I personally see Belit as a good archer and spearwoman, but - after reading Deuce's comment at post #45 - not as a swordwoman. ;)