Jump to content


Photo

Does Conan Know Anything About Valusia?


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 RJMooreII

RJMooreII

    Der Einzige

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 327 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mindless Void

Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:26 PM

Conan seems to have heard of ancient kingdoms like Acheron and Stygia, but does he evince any knowledge of Valusia or his anscestor Kull? Is he oblivious to the fact that he is descended from what may be one of the greatest emperors in human history?
"Never trust a wizard - even in death." - Grognak the Barbarian

#2 Kortoso

Kortoso

    -=Reiver of the Western Marches=-

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:12 PM

Nothing is indicated plainly - as usual.
We have the phrase "chants of old heroes singing in his head". Presumably these heroes are from Cimmeria, but that doesn't mean that they are Atlantean. Probably Cimmerians had forgetten all about Atlantis.

#3 RJMooreII

RJMooreII

    Der Einzige

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 327 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mindless Void

Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:26 AM

Nothing is indicated plainly - as usual.
We have the phrase "chants of old heroes singing in his head". Presumably these heroes are from Cimmeria, but that doesn't mean that they are Atlantean. Probably Cimmerians had forgetten all about Atlantis.

Given how religious syncretism works, they may well have considered bits about Atlantean heroes as Cimmerian heroes. A Cimmerian might hear a fragmentary story and figure that sounds just like someone from his tribe (if you didn't know Kull was an Atlantean you'd probably think he was a Cimmerian). The Greeks adopted Adonis and Apollo as 'Greek' gods, even though they often knew their worship had come from the East.

Edited by RJMooreII, 20 April 2012 - 05:27 AM.

"Never trust a wizard - even in death." - Grognak the Barbarian

#4 Kortoso

Kortoso

    -=Reiver of the Western Marches=-

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 20 April 2012 - 04:48 PM

Well, okay, if we pretend that the tales of Conan survived via the Nemedian Chronicles, would the tales of Kull survive in Conan's day?

#5 Fernando

Fernando

    WarLord

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,362 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zamboula

Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:31 PM

AFAIK, the only REH's yarn where Conan hears about Valusia is TTotE, when Yag-Kosha mentioned some Thurian kingdoms to the young Cimmerian thief.

#6 Kane

Kane

    The Dark Prometheus

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,327 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Columbus, OH. USA

Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:14 PM

AFAIK, the only REH's yarn where Conan hears about Valusia is TTotE, when Yag-Kosha mentioned some Thurian kingdoms to the young Cimmerian thief.

I can see Conan expanding on this when he becomes king. Looking through old maps and reading some of the histories that may have been written down.
As for any history being carried down through story telling around Cimmerian campfires, I seriously doubt that any knowledge of Valusia, or Atlantis, survived.
The NC mentions that going through their "de-evolution" the Atlantian/Cimmerian race lost their ability for speach. Little hard to keep the histories alive when you can't tell and re-tell them.
"I vanquished Law once, I'll conquer yet again--
And force upon Mankind the Freedom he fears--
And dead gods I will again defy?"

#7 Ironhand

Ironhand

    The Mad Playwright

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,805 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Saint Louis, MO, USA

Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:54 AM

The NC mentions that going through their "de-evolution" the Atlantian/Cimmerian race lost their ability for speach. Little hard to keep the histories alive when you can't tell and re-tell them.

Even though REH wrote this, I have trouble wrapping my brain around it. It's an anti-Darwinian idea. Speech is just too valuable to survival.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject

#8 RJMooreII

RJMooreII

    Der Einzige

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 327 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mindless Void

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:07 AM

Even though REH wrote this, I have trouble wrapping my brain around it. It's an anti-Darwinian idea. Speech is just too valuable to survival.

Yeah, I can see people becoming more apelike in habits and physique but they're not going to lose something like speech and tool making. How would that ever not be useful? That's why I always preferred 'became like apes' to be taken as more of a reference to the activation of recessive genes in a stone-age/ice age level of technology.

Edited by RJMooreII, 25 April 2012 - 07:08 AM.

"Never trust a wizard - even in death." - Grognak the Barbarian

#9 Ironhand

Ironhand

    The Mad Playwright

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,805 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Saint Louis, MO, USA

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:33 AM


Even though REH wrote this, I have trouble wrapping my brain around it. It's an anti-Darwinian idea. Speech is just too valuable to survival.

Yeah, I can see people becoming more apelike in habits and physique but they're not going to lose something like speech and tool making. How would that ever not be useful? That's why I always preferred 'became like apes' to be taken as more of a reference to the activation of recessive genes in a stone-age/ice age level of technology.

That's the way I prefer to think about it.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject

#10 Kortoso

Kortoso

    -=Reiver of the Western Marches=-

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:56 PM

So the "chants of old heroes" remain unwritten. :rolleyes:

#11 Rockamobile

Rockamobile

    Warrior

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 181 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:53 PM

In Howard's Conan stories Valusia is never mentioned as far I can remember . But in Karl Edward Wagner's Conan Road of Kings it is.

Edited by Rockamobile, 19 May 2012 - 09:53 PM.


#12 johnnypt

johnnypt

    WarLord

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,699 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 May 2012 - 12:49 AM

In Howard's Conan stories Valusia is never mentioned as far I can remember . But in Karl Edward Wagner's Conan Road of Kings it is.


Yag-Kosha mentions it in Tower of the Elephant: “We saw men grow from the ape and build the shining cities of Valusia, Kamelia, Commoria, and their sisters."

#13 Almuric

Almuric

    Demon Slayer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,059 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 May 2012 - 02:04 AM

Well, Conan did listen to the debates of the wise men of Zamora "Vale of Lost Women", and in later years shows a great deal of knowledge about ancient cultures "Jewels of Gwalhur", so I'm guessing he knows a little bit about the Pre-Cataclysmic Age.
"It is more than a mortal sea. Your hands are red with blood and you follow a red sea-path, yet the fault is not wholly with you. Almighty God, when will the reign of blood cease?"

Turlogh shook his head. "Not so long as the race lasts."


--- The Dark Man, by Robert E. Howard

#14 deuce

deuce

    The OG of "Psychotic Maladjustment"

  • Moderators
  • 13,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Serpent-haunted SEK, beside the Lake of the Mound

Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:45 PM

Conan seems to have heard of ancient kingdoms like Acheron and Stygia, but does he evince any knowledge of Valusia or his anscestor Kull? Is he oblivious to the fact that he is descended from what may be one of the greatest emperors in human history?


As has been pointed out, Conan would've heard about some Thurian kingdoms from Yogah. In addition, it's likely that he heard some whispers of the Thurian Age from the Zamorans, who were descended from a pre-Thurian race. Zaporavo also might've dropped some mentions of Valusia. Finally, we know that Conan had read at least a portion of one version of the Book(s) of Skelos.

On the other hand, Robert E. Howard never even hinted, in any fashion, that Conan was a direct descendant of Kull. REH never mentions Kull after Kings of the Night. For that matter, it's questionable that Kull ever sired children (though I'd like to think so).

Support the Robert E. Howard Foundation. It helps you and Robert E. Howard's legacy.


#15 RJMooreII

RJMooreII

    Der Einzige

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 327 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mindless Void

Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:54 AM

On the other hand, Robert E. Howard never even hinted, in any fashion, that Conan was a direct descendant of Kull. REH never mentions Kull after Kings of the Night. For that matter, it's questionable that Kull ever sired children (though I'd like to think so).

Yeah, it's always been a sort of World Newton pastiche idea; but certainly in a more general sense Conan descends from a strong tribe of Atlanteans who very much fit Kull's overall type; though perhaps a bit shorter and bluer of eyes. Not a lineal descendent necessarily, but consider this: something like 40% of the human race is descended from Genghis Khan. Most Europeans are descended from Habsburgs and Merovingian princes and Italian dictators, etc. People often like to bring up some royal figure they are descended from and it's pretty likely that most of them are. The peasants died of starvation and plague. We are the heirs of disinherited knights, petty barons, land-lords and Royal monopolists. A Farewell to Alms by Gregory Clark talks about some of this, pretty interesting.

The point of that digression is: many people of Valusian-anscestory are likely genetic relatives of its mighty barbarian emperors and stentorian warlords.
"Never trust a wizard - even in death." - Grognak the Barbarian

#16 Ironhand

Ironhand

    The Mad Playwright

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,805 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Saint Louis, MO, USA

Posted 22 May 2012 - 08:15 AM

I have heard that a surprisingly large percentage of Brits are descended from Alfred the Great.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject

#17 StriderSkorpion

StriderSkorpion

    Spear Carrier

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 23 May 2012 - 01:57 AM

On the other hand, Robert E. Howard never even hinted, in any fashion, that Conan was a direct descendant of Kull. REH never mentions Kull after Kings of the Night. For that matter, it's questionable that Kull ever sired children (though I'd like to think so).

Yeah, it's always been a sort of World Newton pastiche idea; but certainly in a more general sense Conan descends from a strong tribe of Atlanteans who very much fit Kull's overall type; though perhaps a bit shorter and bluer of eyes. Not a lineal descendent necessarily, but consider this: something like 40% of the human race is descended from Genghis Khan. Most Europeans are descended from Habsburgs and Merovingian princes and Italian dictators, etc. People often like to bring up some royal figure they are descended from and it's pretty likely that most of them are. The peasants died of starvation and plague. We are the heirs of disinherited knights, petty barons, land-lords and Royal monopolists. A Farewell to Alms by Gregory Clark talks about some of this, pretty interesting.

The point of that digression is: many people of Valusian-anscestory are likely genetic relatives of its mighty barbarian emperors and stentorian warlords.

Actually, it's Wold Newton as it was named after the hamlet that a meteorite landed in. Farmer used this real life incident to help explain why heroes were prevalent in his universe. Also, I don't think Conan being decended from Kull is Wold Newton. I believe it's at least a comic book idea if not from some pastische.

#18 MisfitPanda

MisfitPanda

    Spear Carrier

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 75 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:32 AM

Ironically i live in Volusia county FL lol
...makes nightmares out of pretty dreams!