38 replies to this topic

[deuce]

I've ridden horses since I was a young lad. My dad's family have been horsemen for at least 200yrs. My great-great grandfather was a captain of cavalry at Wilson's Creek. His uncle rode with Marlatt in Mexico. My great-grandad broke horses and mules for a living and his brother rode with Teddy in Cuba. My own grandfather didn't quit riding until he was 85 year of age. My mom's family are Nixons, one of the "Steel Bonnet" Riding Families of the Scottish Border.

So, you could say I've got horses in my blood.

Robert E. Howard was a horsemen as well and he certainly made most of his heroes horsemen. I thought a thread devoted to horses, and especially warhorses, would be a good one for the forum.

Nobody has written more about, nor done more hands-on research regarding warhorses, than Ann Hyland: http://www.amazon.co...nd/e/B001HMNBM4
I own four of her books (they miraculously survived). I can vouch for their quality and thoroughness. Ms. Hyland has done her homework. There are other good equestrian writers out there, of course.

Stumbling on this article is what prompted me to go ahead and start this thread:

http://www.horseofth...untedTigers.htm

Might as well start with history's first great breed of warhorse: the Nisean.

[Taranaich]

Great idea for a thread, Deuce, seems like the best place to share the first part of Keith Taylor's "If Wishes Were Horses":

“Better a man’s steed, than a man’s slave, master,” said the girl.
“Aye,” he answered, “for there is nobility in a good horse.”
– Robert E. Howard, “The Slave-Princess”

[Buxom Sorceress]

Thanks for the info.

some example bits that I found interesting...

"...One if the most interesting women of antiquity was Zenobia, Queen of Palmyra, who ruled from 266 to 273 AD. A courageous woman with as much energy as she had ambition, she very nearly tore a large chunk of the Roman Empire away for herself. Unfortunately for her, her opponent in was Emperor Aurelian, one of Rome's greatest military emperors...

...Zenobia in grand style decided to lead her troops personally. Wearing a chain mail tunic with a purple scarf draped over her shoulders, secured by a large brooch that gleamed in the brilliant sunlight, she looked every bit the warrior queen with a Persian helmet covering her black hair...

...When Napoleon came to power, he tried to revive the French imperial horse with Andalusians and in doing so almost destroyed that breed when he almost stripped Spain of the breed. A famous painting by Jacques Louis David shows Napoleon on a handsome overo stallion. Flaebehoppen, the ancestress of the Knapstrub, was a leopard Andalusian mare left behind by his troops in Denmark. Within a hundred years leopards would be missing entirely in this magnificent Spanish breed. The Lusitano fared somewhat better and is the purer of the two Spanish breeds. The Andalusian within the past 150 years has been crossed with several other breeds, and as recently as 1983, Thoroughbreds were being crossed with them to produce a more 'sellable' horse..."
----

Horses have been much abused [ and killed ] by men in their 'petty-power-blood-lust' 'wars' throughout our very horror-filled sick and twisted human history.

Such repeated cycles of desperate 'conquests' are fascinating, but very dark and sad.

1 spear [ or a couple of arrows ] can bring down any un-armoured horse.

Warlords would often treat their special horses better than their women?

[Ironhand]

MOD EDIT: This is crap. If anyone has reputable information to support it, cite this entry when posting.

From Beverly Davis, They Hunted Tigers:
http://www.horseofth...untedTigers.htm
"In 675, a Median chieftain named Phraortes (Khshathrita) formed an anti Assyrian alliance with the Cimmerians. On Assyria's side were one of the many bands of Scythians that roamed through Central Asia and the Urartians, whose land would become famous for their beautiful gaited horses. Although he ruled for 53 years, the Assyrians eventually killed Phraortes. The Scythian horsemen drove the Cimmerians out of Central Asia for good. (Here's something to think about. Many historians think the Cimmerians may be related to the Welsh, whose name for themselves is Cymbri. The Cimmerians kept protoArabs of the Luristan type. Could the Welsh pony be a descendent of those early protoArabs? Just a thought)"

Edited by deuce, 29 July 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Kortoso]

I enjoy this tale of Darius versus my beloved Scythians:

Then this army of the Scythians departed; and the other army set themselves in battle array against Darius, having both horse and foot, and purposing to fight against him.
And it so fell out when the two armies were drawn up the one over against the other, that a hare ran through the midst of the army of the Scythians, and when the Scythians saw it they left care of the battle and pursued after the hare.
And Darius seeing that the Scythians were in much confusion and shouted aloud, enquired what this might mean that the enemy were so disturbed.
And when he knew that they were busy pursuing the hare he turned to them to whom he was wont to speak at other times also, and said to them, "Surely these men have a great scorn for us"...

[deuce]

From Beverly Davis, They Hunted Tigers:
http://www.horseofth...untedTigers.htm
The Scythian horsemen drove the Cimmerians out of Central Asia for good. (Here's something to think about. Many historians think the Cimmerians may be related to the Welsh, whose name for themselves is Cymbri. The Cimmerians kept protoArabs of the Luristan type. Could the Welsh pony be a descendent of those early protoArabs? Just a thought)"

Yeah, I meant to warn people about that. I really don't know of any Brythonic or Indo-Iranian scholars who agree with it. The two names are separated by 1000yrs and 2000mi (and different language groups). REH didn't buy into it either. Howard thought there might be a connection betwixt the Cymry and the Cimbri, though.

The problem with "niche" articles like Davis' is that, while the author may be well-informed on their own little topic, a lot of times they get "outside" details wrong. I see it in culinary stuff all the time as well.

[deuce]

Thanks for the info.

some example bits that I found interesting...

"...One if the most interesting women of antiquity was Zenobia, Queen of Palmyra, who ruled from 266 to 273 AD. A courageous woman with as much energy as she had ambition, she very nearly tore a large chunk of the Roman Empire away for herself. Unfortunately for her, her opponent in was Emperor Aurelian, one of Rome's greatest military emperors...

...Zenobia in grand style decided to lead her troops personally. Wearing a chain mail tunic with a purple scarf draped over her shoulders, secured by a large brooch that gleamed in the brilliant sunlight, she looked every bit the warrior queen with a Persian helmet covering her black hair...

Hey Buxie! Glad you dug it. Yep, Zenobia had her act together.

When Napoleon came to power, he tried to revive the French imperial horse with Andalusians and in doing so almost destroyed that breed when he almost stripped Spain of the breed. A famous painting by Jacques Louis David shows Napoleon on a handsome overo stallion. Flaebehoppen, the ancestress of the Knapstrub, was a leopard Andalusian mare left behind by his troops in Denmark. Within a hundred years leopards would be missing entirely in this magnificent Spanish breed. The Lusitano fared somewhat better and is the purer of the two Spanish breeds. The Andalusian within the past 150 years has been crossed with several other breeds, and as recently as 1983, Thoroughbreds were being crossed with them to produce a more 'sellable' horse..."
----

A pity about the Andalusians. One of the great old breeds. That also points up how the Scandinavian breeds were vastly improved during the Renaissance and later. Before that, even their draft horses were only "pony" sized (15.2 hands).

Horses have been much abused [ and killed ] by men in their 'petty-power-blood-lust' 'wars' throughout our very horror-filled sick and twisted human history.

1 spear [ or a couple of arrows ] can bring down any un-armoured horse.

Horses (like men) differ as to the physical trauma they can endure before going down. There are some amazing (and tragic) tales of wounded horses carrying on.

Without a doubt, the horse is the animal that's suffered most due to warfare. I'm (basically) a "dog person", but when I heard the US Congress was thinking about erecting a statue to "war dogs", I was like, "Hey, we need to make a monument to American warhorses first."

[deuce]

A Sassanian cataphract mounted on a Nisean/Nisaean charger:

http://www.google.co...,r:4,s:50,i:254

Painted by the one-and-only Angus McBride.

[deuce]

Great idea for a thread, Deuce, seems like the best place to share the first part of Keith Taylor's "If Wishes Were Horses":

“Better a man’s steed, than a man’s slave, master,” said the girl.
“Aye,” he answered, “for there is nobility in a good horse.”
– Robert E. Howard, “The Slave-Princess”

Right on. I expect Keith's next entry to kick a$$ as well.

[RJMooreII]

My favorite horseman is the Sassanid Cataphract. Especially with the scale armor on horses.
Despite the fact that I'm a huge buff on ultra-heavily armored knights I'm actually kind of meh on European charge cavalry, heh. But I love horse archers. Go Chingiz!

[deuce]

My favorite horseman is the Sassanid Cataphract. Especially with the scale armor on horses.

Hey RJM! I've always thought the Sassanid heavy cav kicked a$$ (see my cataphract link above). I see Hyborian Age Iranistani cavalry as "updated" versions with stirrups.

Despite the fact that I'm a huge buff on ultra-heavily armored knights I'm actually kind of meh on European charge cavalry, heh.

Hey now! Western Europeans perfected charge cavalry. Robert E. Howard certainly thought so, as did Anna Comnenus. Actually, I recall several Muslim/Saracen/Arab accounts that state/imply "Frankish" cavalry was nearly unstoppable, at least in the initial charge.

But I love horse archers. Go Chingiz!

As O'Connell notes in Of Arms and Men, the horse archer was probably the single best "weapons system" devised before the gunpowder era. The problem is maintaining that system.

[Atali]

Hah - something right up my street! Thanks Deuce for starting the topic.

I've no family connections with horses (my parents can tell one end of a horse from another, but that's just about it), but I've been horse mad ever since I can remember. I do ride, and now I own a horse, which is great, but also time (and money)-consuming. Not that I complain!

Regarding Andalusians, I think the breed is still regarded as pure today (with the Carthusian being the best), and I haven't heard anything about them being nearly driven to extinction, though of course I might be wrong (will look up the history). The Lusitano is now native to Portugal, but the two breeds have a common ancestry; they became separated in the 16th or 17th century. They're both wonderful horses to ride. In Spain, Andalusians are often crossed with Angloarabs to produce the so-called "tres sangres" (literally "three bloods"), and these horses, being faster than the Andalusian, are used by the Spanish "vaqueros" (cowboys) in their work with bulls. They're also usually used in doma vaquera - Spanish working equitation.

As for horse archery - that's an art. I was lucky to be able to see an expert horse archer (actually Polish :-)) and was quite amazed at the guy's ability. You really have to have an excellent seat and coordination, not to mention control of the horse.

[deuce]

Hah - something right up my street! Thanks Deuce for starting the topic.

I've no family connections with horses (my parents can tell one end of a horse from another, but that's just about it), but I've been horse mad ever since I can remember. I do ride, and now I own a horse, which is great, but also time (and money)-consuming. Not that I complain!

Always good to see you on the forum, Atali.

IMO, if horses were actually used as transportation (as of old) their (proportionate) "cost" would pale beside that of dogs and cats (in respect to how such are maintained today; NOT as "working breeds").

Regarding Andalusians, I think the breed is still regarded as pure today (with the Carthusian being the best), and I haven't heard anything about them being nearly driven to extinction, though of course I might be wrong (will look up the history). The Lusitano is now native to Portugal, but the two breeds have a common ancestry; they became separated in the 16th or 17th century. They're both wonderful horses to ride. In Spain, Andalusians are often crossed with Angloarabs to produce the so-called "tres sangres" (literally "three bloods"), and these horses, being faster than the Andalusian, are used by the Spanish "vaqueros" (cowboys) in their work with bulls. They're also usually used in doma vaquera - Spanish working equitation.

I'm really no expert on horse breeds. I've spent my whole life riding Quarterhorses and Appaloosas (with an occasional Arabian). I know that Hyland never mentioned the Andalusion "situation", but her books don't go up to the Napoleonic period. So, I was just taking Davis at her word. Perhaps, like the Cimmerian/Cymry thing, she's just plain wrong.

As for horse archery - that's an art. I was lucky to be able to see an expert horse archer (actually Polish :-)) and was quite amazed at the guy's ability. You really have to have an excellent seat and coordination, not to mention control of the horse.

Horse archery appears to require equal amounts of skill with a bow and empathy with a horse. Such is not gained overnight. Thus, what I said about the difficulties maintaining a "horse archer corps" off the steppes. One has to start at childhood.

[Michael Miko]

I have always thought when humans first began to ride horses that other humans when they first saw a human riding a horse it began the basis of the centaur myth. A human seeing such a thing would have been freaked out.

Just my thought on it.

Digressing... A weapons expert in a documentry I watched about the Mughals said that it was easier to teach someone used to riding a horse to shoot a bow while on the horse than someone skilled with the bow that had to learn to ride.

The Mongols and their descendents such as the Mughals fascinate me as do the Scythians, Huns and other Steppe peoples.

Miko

[Michael Miko]

From Beverly Davis, They Hunted Tigers:
http://www.horseofth...untedTigers.htm
"In 675, a Median chieftain named Phraortes (Khshathrita) formed an anti Assyrian alliance with the Cimmerians. On Assyria's side were one of the many bands of Scythians that roamed through Central Asia and the Urartians, whose land would become famous for their beautiful gaited horses. Although he ruled for 53 years, the Assyrians eventually killed Phraortes. The Scythian horsemen drove the Cimmerians out of Central Asia for good. (Here's something to think about. Many historians think the Cimmerians may be related to the Welsh, whose name for themselves is Cymbri. The Cimmerians kept protoArabs of the Luristan type. Could the Welsh pony be a descendent of those early protoArabs? Just a thought)"

Thank you for sharing that Ironhand. Excellent info.

[deuce]

From Beverly Davis, They Hunted Tigers:
http://www.horseofth...untedTigers.htm
"In 675, a Median chieftain named Phraortes (Khshathrita) formed an anti Assyrian alliance with the Cimmerians. On Assyria's side were one of the many bands of Scythians that roamed through Central Asia and the Urartians, whose land would become famous for their beautiful gaited horses. Although he ruled for 53 years, the Assyrians eventually killed Phraortes. The Scythian horsemen drove the Cimmerians out of Central Asia for good. (Here's something to think about. Many historians think the Cimmerians may be related to the Welsh, whose name for themselves is Cymbri. The Cimmerians kept protoArabs of the Luristan type. Could the Welsh pony be a descendent of those early protoArabs? Just a thought)"

Thank you for sharing that Ironhand. Excellent info.

Michael! Great to see ya on the forum. That "info" looks to be total crap. If there's some reputable source to back it up, I'd like to see it. I provided the original link and the "Cimmerian/Cymric" crap seems to be all some latch onto. This is the second time I've had to respond to/refute it. Robert E. Howard saw NO (direct) link between the Cimmerians and the Cymry/Welsh.
'
To repeat: the "Nisaean" info (my ENTIRE point in posting the link) seems tight in the initial link. About everything else by Davis is questionable, if not junk.

[Michael Miko]

I did not know it was questionable history, Deuce. I am glad that you are bringing that to our attention. I had no idea. It was an interesting read though for fiction I guess.

[Fierro]

As a salute to Deuce: Two songs by the Canadian shitkicker singer Corb Lund (nicely Howardian):

Horse Soldier, Horse Soldier — reincarnation theme

I Wanna Be in the Cavalry — Pogues-inspired

[deuce]

As a salute to Deuce: Two songs by the Canadian shitkicker singer Corb Lund (nicely Howardian):

Horse Soldier, Horse Soldier — reincarnation theme

I Wanna Be in the Cavalry— Pogues-inspired

Much obliged, Fierro.

[PaulMc]

And don't forget, if you wanna smell Hell - jine the cavalry!

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=1_nF_WLRgpE