13 replies to this topic

[Dantai]

I've always thought that the ruins of the Hyborian age have all had a certain ring to them (especially a love for the letter X), but it was only recently that I realised that the names of these ruins werereminiscent of Mesoamerican cities. Take for example "Xuchotl" (Xochitl) and "Tlazitlan" (Teziutlán), perhaps the most obvious examples. Do you think this was more a subconscious thing, or a conscious effort on Howard's part? He was after all a Texan, growing up close to the lands of the great American empires, but how much of their history was really known during Howard's lifetime? Aside from the names, how much about these places are inspired by their namesakes, or is their exotic names the only thing that Howard took from them, and if so, is this because there was at that time limited knowledge about these civilisations?

Edited by Dantai, 17 July 2012 - 10:48 PM.

[deuce]

So, which Hyborian tribe built Xuchotl?

[Dantai]

Kosalans, I believe, but at the time of Red Nails it's occupied by the Tlazitans, who are descended from those Kosalans interbred with Stygians. So Mesoamerican only in namesake really. But why? Did he just like the foreign sound of the names?

[deuce]

Kosalans, I believe, but at the time of Red Nails it's occupied by the Tlazitans, who are descended from those Kosalans interbred with Stygians. So Mesoamerican only in namesake really. But why? Did he just like the foreign sound of the names?

Kosalans built Xuchotl. The Tlazitlans (who came "from the East") interbred with the Stygians around Lake Zuad. The Tlazitlans never interbred with the Kosalans of Xuchotl. Instead, they wiped out the Xuchotlans. Neither the Stygians nor the Tlazitlans nor the Kosalans were "Hyborian".

[Dantai]

I don't see what your point is. You asked which Hyborian tribe build Xuchotl; I gave you the nearest answer, the Kosalans not being a Hyborian tribe, thinking perhaps that you had made a mistake. Why are you being purposefully obtuse? Why would you ask a question to which the answer, you know, would be "none"?

Edited by Dantai, 18 July 2012 - 06:41 AM.

[deuce]

I don't see what your point is. You asked which Hyborian tribe build Xuchotl; I gave you the nearest answer, the Kosalans not being a Hyborian tribe, thinking perhaps that you had made a mistake. Why are you being purposefully obtuse? Why would you ask a question to which the answer, you know, would be "none"?

Because you are being "obtuse". As long as the title is "Hyborian Ruins" (you seem addicted to the term "Hyborian"), you rule out any ethnic group that is not "Hyborian". THAT is why Steve Tompkins, Amra, Al Harron and myself (amongst MANY others) are against the term "Hyborian" when used as a general term for the "Hyborian Age".

It's like saying "Victorian architecture" when referring to a Japanese "tera". built in 1880. Yeah, it was built when the "Victorians" were at their height. "Victorians" didn't build it. The "Hyborians" were a specific ethnic group (according to REH). Any attempt to discuss them is clouded by the use of "Hyboria" to refer to a pre-glacial phase of pre-history described by Robert E. Howard. Sorry. Simple as that.

A quote from Rusty Burke (y'know, that guy from the Del Rey books):

"The Hyborians were the "Hy-Bori" or "Ui-Bori" -- the descendants of Bori. They were a people, not a place. We can refer to the age in which they were a dominant or significant people as "the Hyborian Age," and to lands they occupied as "Hyborian lands," but are stretching quite a lot when we use the term for the entire world in which they lived. It would be rather like calling Earth ca. the 10th century AD "Viking", or ca. 19th century "British." I agree with Steve that using the term to refer to Conan's world is incorrect, and is likely to cause some folks to lose sight of (or miss altogether) that Conan lived in the very same world we do, just in an earlier age unknown to scholarship."

YOU are the one who tried to take everyone to school.

[deuce]

I don't see what your point is. You asked which Hyborian tribe build Xuchotl; I gave you the nearest answer, the Kosalans not being a Hyborian tribe, thinking perhaps that you had made a mistake.

Actually, you said the Tlazitlans interbred with the Kosalans. Wrong right there.

You came on this forum with a "schoolmaster" attitude. When the replies got too "pedantic", you started this thread.

There's a lot to learn here, Dantai. I learn something on this forum about every day, I have for 7+ years.

[Amra_the_Lion]

I just chuckle thinking of what Painbrush would have had to say.

[Dantai]

Then please do say so, rather than ask a question to which you know there is no answer. Understand that I am new here. You seem to be subscribed to the concept that this forum is a place for use by an elite few veteran scholars like yourself, rather than a place to serve all Howard fans alike to further understanding of his works. As a moderator, surely you have a responsibility to patience and tolerance in ensuring that new members feel welcomed and inspired to stay, rather than scaring them off with snarky comments?

I understand by how fervently you have responded to my posts that you have a great passion for the subject and that I have greatly upset you. I will do my best to remedy this at my nearest convenience by editing my first post in such a way that it does not insult established Howard scholars. I understand that you yourself are one of these, that you have read more widely of Howard's writings and are therefore more experienced in Howard scholarship. For this reason I would like to learn to respect you, and thus I ask that you accept my apology, allow me to make amends, add "Age" to the title of this topic and allow us to continue this discussion rationally and civilly, so that we can further our understanding of the mind and worlds of the brilliant writer that we both love. And please do feel free to point me in the right direction, wherever possible, and correct my mistakes in a calm manner without the use of rhetoric.

Now, as I asked, has the influence of South and Central American civilisation on the naming of Hyborian Age ruins been discussed before?

[Lunatic]

Are there more ruins that sound like ancient american than Xuchotl?

Obviously it sounds like the Olmecs but how did they get there?

[deuce]

Then please do say so, rather than ask a question to which you know there is no answer. Understand that I am new here. You seem to be subscribed to the concept that this forum is a place for use by an elite few veteran scholars like yourself, rather than a place to serve all Howard fans alike to further understanding of his works. As a moderator, surely you have a responsibility to patience and tolerance in ensuring that new members feel welcomed and inspired to stay, rather than scaring them off with snarky comments?

Hey Dantai!

I don't normally ask such questions. In fact, I've replied to MANY posts that used "Hyborian" as you did and said nothing. Your "take you to school" approach on the "Tombalku" thread helped bring out my pedantic side.

Regarding some question that I consider this forum the sanctum of an "elite few", that's truly laughable. Try McHaney's "rehinnercircle" on Yahoo for some of that silliness.

How much online Howard scholarship have you read? In this ONE BLOG ENTRY ALONE, I gave props to two Forum members who (as far as I know) claim no pretensions of "Howard scholarship". From the day I started blogging at The Cimmerian, I have always plugged this forum. Crom/Bruce Durham and Strom/Pete Roncoli will back me up on that, rest assured.

As soon as I sneaked onto the TC blog, I brought on Al Harron. Why? Because I knew him from this greatly-despised/ignored forum. I compounded that sin by bringing on Jeff Shanks (whom you've quoted before) and Jim Cornelius. When it came to "REH scholarship", who knew them before this forum? So, please, don't try to play that card, Dantai.

When it comes to Howard scholarship, I do not care WHO you are. No need for "official" credentials. You just better know what you're talking about.


As far as "patience and tolerance" and "welcoming" you, I'm not sure how else you would describe my initial reply to your "Tombalku" post. Let's look at it:

"Hey Dantai! I'll echo Al/Taranaich in welcoming you to the forum.

I agree that Mr. Rippke is the foremost cartographer of the Hyborian Age world. While I often disagree with Dale on other topics, his Hyborian Age cartographic work is almost always solid, IMO. Did Dale put "the fires" at the southern end of the Stygian continent? I don't have access to that essay at the moment."

Dantai, I welcomed you to the forum. Quite honestly, despite the confrontational tone of your initial "Tombalku" post. That said, after that first post, I received news about a very tragic family-related event. I was in no mood to put up with posts from someone who was going to "take me to school". You treated Amra the Lion no better.

I understand by how fervently you have responded to my posts that you have a great passion for the subject and that I have greatly upset you. I will do my best to remedy this at my nearest convenience by editing my first post in such a way that it does not insult established Howard scholars. I understand that you yourself are one of these, that you have read more widely of Howard's writings and are therefore more experienced in Howard scholarship. For this reason I would like to learn to respect you, and thus I ask that you accept my apology, allow me to make amends, add "Age" to the title of this topic and allow us to continue this discussion rationally and civilly, so that we can further our understanding of the mind and worlds of the brilliant writer that we both love. And please do feel free to point me in the right direction, wherever possible, and correct my mistakes in a calm manner without the use of rhetoric.

I'm fine with that, Dantai. Whether you agree with my views (100%) is immaterial. I've noted MANY times before that NOBODY in REH scholarship agrees with me 100% of the time. Cool. Let's move forward.

As I said before, "Welcome to the forum."

[deuce]

I just chuckle thinking of what Painbrush would have had to say.

Hey Amra!

Painbrush/Dan Goudey (RIP) was one of a kind and a great guy.
He brought a LOT to this forum. Very intelligent and well-read. He n' I had our arguments here, but we were cool before the end.

[deuce]

Are there more ruins that sound like ancient american than Xuchotl?

Obviously it sounds like the Olmecs but how did they get there?

Obviously, REH didn't describe the Tlazitlans as "Olmecs". Here's an image: http://www.google.co...29,r:4,s:0,i:81

Just because Howard named one Tlazitlan "Olmec" means jack-all. Context is everything. Was Thalis from :"Xuthal" a Hellenistic (male) Greek?

To answer your first question: No, there aren't any other sites during the Hyborian Age that sound particularly "Mesoamerican".

"Xuthal" (also Kosalan) would be the closest (along with "Khemu" from Marchers of Valhalla). "Xu" and "thal" aren't exclusively "Mesoamerican". In fact, "xanth" and "xeno" are known from Greek. The closest Dantai could find to "Mesoamerican" was "Xochitl". There's an old city in Central Asia called (depending) "Xujand". Basically, no, there aren't any other cities with "mesoamerican" names on the Thurian/Hyborian/Hyrkanian/Stygian continents. I think there is a definite reason for that.

The Kosalans built "Xuchotl", not the Tlazitlans. Period. Howard left no doubt of that. What we see of the Kosalans (does the name even sound "Mesoamerican"?) in Xuthal of the Dusk is NOT anything Olmec/Mayan Aztec/"Mesoamerican". Not the names. Not the cuiture. Not the architecture.

So, who are these "Tlazitlans" who exterminated the Kosalans of "Xuchotl"?

First off, they're NOT Kosalan. Secondly, they did not build "Xuchotl".

What we know from Howard (my copy of "Conquering Sword" got ruined, but I've read Red Nails at least 100 times in the last 30+yrs) is that the Tlazitlans "came from the East". They settled near Lake Zuad and "mongrelized" with the Stygians. In fact, Conan and Valeria NEVER remark on any discernible difference between the Stygians and the Tlazitlans. Tascela was actively courted by the "race-proud"/xenophobic pure Stygian nobility.

What do we make of all this?

In the "Hyborian Age" guideline, Robert E. Howard noted that the ancestors of the Stygians came from the "Nameless Continent". Some have tried to equate the "Nameless Continent" with Mu. REH "named" Mu numerous times. OTOH, Howard referred to the "nameless continent" in the "Miller letter" in connection with Conan's wanderings. Everything indicates that the "nameless continent" was the Americas (in some form) and that some sort of "Stygians/Egyptians" inhabited that landmass from a very early period.

While I've seriously considered that the Tlazitlans were from some relict "proto-Stygian" region in "Sundaland", it doesn't really make sense.

No, it would appear that the Tlazitlans actually made the voyage from the Pacific coast of the "Nameless Continent" to the shores of the "Hyrkanian continent" and headed west. Sort of the opposite voyage as recounted in the Book of Mormon. Racially, the two peoples would've been similar (though separated by 5000+yrs). Tascela (the entire reason for the Tlazitlan exodus. perhaps?) would've had an impeccable pedigree. IMO, nothing else explains why the notoriously xenophobic Stygians allowed the Tlazitlans to settle on the shores of Lake Zuad.

[theagenes]

Then please do say so, rather than ask a question to which you know there is no answer. Understand that I am new here. You seem to be subscribed to the concept that this forum is a place for use by an elite few veteran scholars like yourself, rather than a place to serve all Howard fans alike to further understanding of his works. As a moderator, surely you have a responsibility to patience and tolerance in ensuring that new members feel welcomed and inspired to stay, rather than scaring them off with snarky comments?

I understand by how fervently you have responded to my posts that you have a great passion for the subject and that I have greatly upset you. I will do my best to remedy this at my nearest convenience by editing my first post in such a way that it does not insult established Howard scholars. I understand that you yourself are one of these, that you have read more widely of Howard's writings and are therefore more experienced in Howard scholarship. For this reason I would like to learn to respect you, and thus I ask that you accept my apology, allow me to make amends, add "Age" to the title of this topic and allow us to continue this discussion rationally and civilly, so that we can further our understanding of the mind and worlds of the brilliant writer that we both love. And please do feel free to point me in the right direction, wherever possible, and correct my mistakes in a calm manner without the use of rhetoric.

Now, as I asked, has the influence of South and Central American civilisation on the naming of Hyborian Age ruins been discussed before?

Hi Dantai,
Welcome to the boards. Sometimes the debates can get a little testy, but don't take it personally.

Yes, Howard's use of mesoamerican names in Red Nails has been discussed here and elsewhere. Personally, I don't think it was subconcious or random on his part at all. Deuce has suggested one possibilty for the origins of the Tlazitlans and in general I agree, though I'd like to suggest another somewhat related possibility. In several works, notably "Isle of the Aeons" and "Men of the Shadows," Howard suggests that the Toltecs (at the time thought be the ancestor race of all the mesoamerican civilzations) were decendents of the Lemurians that escaped to the Americas. It may be that he intended for the Tlazitlans to be decendents of Lemurians as well, though ones that fled west to the eastern shores of the Hykanian continent. Same basic premise as Deuce's model, but with a slight variation.

Also, I've suggested elsewhere that Howard may have gotten "Tlazitlan" from the "Tlavati," one of the sub-races of Atlanteans in the theosopical cosmology, of which Howard seems to have been aware. Can't prove that obviously, but it's a reasonable possibility and would follow Howard's pattern of naming conventions (i.e. taking a historical term and changing a couple of letters).
Again welcome to the boards!
Jeff Shanks