21 replies to this topic

[Konorg]

I was wondering if anyone here knows where I can find any info on Mr.Howards Temple of Set,theres not much on it in his stories.

I'm going to start running a weekend D&D games based strictly ib the Hyborian world for some of my pals and I need info on it and it's structure/hierarchy and was hoping someone might beable to point out some info.


Thanks
Konorg

[deuce]

I was wondering if anyone here knows where I can find any info on Mr.Howards Temple of Set,theres not much on it in his stories.

I'm going to start running a weekend D&D games based strictly ib the Hyborian world for some of my pals and I need info on it and it's structure/hierarchy and was hoping someone might be able to point out some info.


Thanks
Konorg

Hey Konorg! What are you wanting to know, exactly? You need info on the structure/hierarchy of the Setite religion in Stygia? Or some specific "temple"?

[Boot]

Check the free Conan articles for S&P over on the Mongoose site. There is an article about Stygian temples, with maps. I think that article is more focussed on the actual temple, though, not the priesthood.

Of course, there are several Conan RPG notes on Set and his worshippers in various books for that game.

For quick and free, besides the S&P articles, also check Thulsa's site:



EDIT: Oh, and look at the various pastiches with stories set in Stygia. Poul Anderson's Conan The Rebel and John Maddox Roberts' Conan The Valorous come to mind.

Edited by Boot, 06 August 2012 - 01:52 AM.

[Konorg]

I was wondering if anyone here knows where I can find any info on Mr.Howards Temple of Set,theres not much on it in his stories.

I'm going to start running a weekend D&D games based strictly ib the Hyborian world for some of my pals and I need info on it and it's structure/hierarchy and was hoping someone might be able to point out some info.


Thanks
Konorg

Hey Konorg! What are you wanting to know, exactly? You need info on the structure/hierarchy of the Setite religion in Stygia? Or some specific "temple"?

I'm seeking info on the structure/hierarchy of the Setite religion in Stygia!

[Konorg]

Check the free Conan articles for S&P over on the Mongoose site. There is an article about Stygian temples, with maps. I think that article is more focussed on the actual temple, though, not the priesthood.

Of course, there are several Conan RPG notes on Set and his worshippers in various books for that game.

For quick and free, besides the S&P articles, also check Thulsa's site:



EDIT: Oh, and look at the various pastiches with stories set in Stygia. Poul Anderson's Conan The Rebel and John Maddox Roberts' Conan The Valorous come to mind.

CROM!!! I never thought of checking out the pastiches! Thanks for the link. OH great I called on you know who now i'll have dooms sent my way!

Edited by Konorg, 06 August 2012 - 02:53 AM.

[deuce]

Check the free Conan articles for S&P over on the Mongoose site. There is an article about Stygian temples, with maps. I think that article is more focussed on the actual temple, though, not the priesthood.

Of course, there are several Conan RPG notes on Set and his worshippers in various books for that game.

For quick and free, besides the S&P articles, also check Thulsa's site:



EDIT: Oh, and look at the various pastiches with stories set in Stygia. Poul Anderson's Conan The Rebel and John Maddox Roberts' Conan The Valorous come to mind.

CROM!!! I never thought of checking out the pastiches! Thanks for the link. OH great I called on you know who now i'll have dooms sent my way!

Conan "called on/swore by" Crom in just about every yarn written by REH. The quote from QotBC is mysterious, to say the least.

IMO, Poul's book is better in regards to the Setite religion, but JMR's novel is the better read.

Pastiches are no substitute for what REH actually wrote. Remember that.

WHATEVER you do (smoke salvia; whatever), DO NOT use Busiek's The Book of Thoth as a source. That mini-series essentially turned everything Robert E. Howard ever wrote about Stygia/Stygian religion on its head.

[Boot]

Unless it's in the REH stories with Conan as King, I don't think REH actually wrote much about the religion of Set. Maybe there's a snippet here and a tidbit there. Even in the pastiches, I don't remember reading too much about it.

I think the path is open to just make it up as you think it should be.

As I said above, the Conan RPG might provide some help. All that is, though, is someone else making it up. I'd start with the Conan The Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook. The Faith And Fervour book focuses on religion during the Hyborian Age. Stygia--Serpent of the South is the book that describes Stygia in detail. And two books, The Scrolls of Skelos and The Secrets of Skelos both focus on sorcerery.





EDIT: And, deuce has a good idea above, too. Look at the various Conan comic stories for inspiration as well. Since comics are visual, I find this very helpful in gaming. A picture can inspire detail, and it's an imagination pumper for the visual element you describe to your players in your game.

The task would be though, to wade through all the stories by all the publishers to find the stories that focus on Stygian priests.

I disagree with deuce's advice above, too. I own, but have not yet read, The Book of Thoth. If I liked the book, though, and it suited my RPG needs, I use the information in it in a heartbeat--especially since there is little official information on the priesthood of Set.

Edited by Boot, 06 August 2012 - 05:44 PM.

[Konorg]

Check the free Conan articles for S&P over on the Mongoose site. There is an article about Stygian temples, with maps. I think that article is more focussed on the actual temple, though, not the priesthood.

Of course, there are several Conan RPG notes on Set and his worshippers in various books for that game.

For quick and free, besides the S&P articles, also check Thulsa's site:



EDIT: Oh, and look at the various pastiches with stories set in Stygia. Poul Anderson's Conan The Rebel and John Maddox Roberts' Conan The Valorous come to mind.

CROM!!! I never thought of checking out the pastiches! Thanks for the link. OH great I called on you know who now i'll have dooms sent my way!

Conan "called on/swore by" Crom in just about every yarn written by REH. The quote from QotBC is mysterious, to say the least.

IMO, Poul's book is better in regards to the Setite religion, but JMR's novel is the better read.

Pastiches are no substitute for what REH actually wrote. Remember that.

WHATEVER you do (smoke salvia; whatever), DO NOT use Busiek's The Book of Thoth as a source. That mini-series essentially turned everything Robert E. Howard ever wrote about Stygia/Stygian religion on its head.

Well it's one thing to add a little something something,but turning it on it's head is wrong.
I have a copyof the Age of Conan Novel Heretic of Stygia and when you get to the end where hero actually starts using magick it's takes a d&d feel.
I mean the guy says the word water and the blde of a sword turns into water

[deuce]

Pastiches are no substitute for what REH actually wrote. Remember that.

WHATEVER you do (smoke salvia; whatever), DO NOT use Busiek's The Book of Thoth as a source. That mini-series essentially turned everything Robert E. Howard ever wrote about Stygia/Stygian religion on its head.

Well it's one thing to add a little something something,but turning it on it's head is wrong.
I have a copyof the Age of Conan Novel Heretic of Stygia and when you get to the end where hero actually starts using magick it's takes a d&d feel.
I mean the guy says the word water and the blde of a sword turns into water

It's been pointed out before that the "Anok" trilogy seems to copy broad plot elements from the Star Wars "Prequel Trilogy". Busiek's "Book of Thoth" appears to do the same thing, only "Thoth" was never "good".

In the first issue, "Thoth" is running around the streets of Luxur; a pale-faced, brown-haired, manga-type boy with big eyes and a satchel-mouth. RIGHT THERE, it starts to deviate from Howard.

The "Stygian" soldiers are (pasty) "Greco-Roman Whites" and the dominant priesthood is that of Ibis. The priests are all sub-Saharan African and the worship of Set is a distant memory.

It's hard to express how much this contradicts what Robert E. Howard said about Stygian culture and history. If you want me to go into detail, Konorg, we need to move to the "Book of Thoth" thread:

http://www.conan.com...ic=949&hl=thoth

Robert E. Howard actually said a LOT about Stygian culture/religion/history. Busiek just ignored 99% of it.

[constantine]

If one is interested in putting a Stygian temple in an RPG, using the plans of historical Egyptian temples (Philae, Luxor, Medinet Habu, Edfu) would do IMO. In a Howardian touch though, some minor addition, here to reflect the dark and evil nature of Stygian deities, would make it even better.

[MiihkaliT]

Couple of interesting passages about Stygian religion. There may be many more, but these two pop into my mind at first.

"Far to the east, the Lemurians, levelled almost to a bestial plane themselves by the brutishness of their slavery, have risen and destroyed their masters. They are savages stalking among the ruins of a strange civilization. The survivors of that civilization, who have escaped the fury of their slaves, have come westward. They fall upon that mysterious pre-human kingdom of the south and overthrow it, substituting their own culture, modified by contact with the older one. The newer kingdom is called Stygia, and remnants of the older nation seemed to have survived, and even been worshipped, after the race as a whole had been destroyed."
—The Hyborian Age

The Cimmerian recoiled, remembering tales he had heard-serpents were sacred to Set, god of Stygia, who men said was himself a serpent. Monsters such as this were kept in the temples of Set, and when they hungered, were allowed to crawl forth into the streets to take what prey they wished. Their ghastly feasts were considered a sacrifice to the scaly god. The Stygians within Conan's sight fell to their knees, men and women, and passively awaited their fate.
—The Hour of the Dragon, Chapter 17 ("He Has Slain the Sacred Son of Set")

Ships did not put unasked into this port, where dusky sorcerers wove awful spells in the murk of sacrificial smoke mounting eternally from blood-stained altars where naked women screamed, and where Set, the Old Serpent, arch-demon of the Hyborians but god of the Stygians, was said to writhe his shining coils among his worshippers.
—Queen of the Black Coast, Chapter 1

I interpret these so that Stygian priests are quite heavily separated from the laymen. Perhaps they live inside the temples of Set. I somehow get the impression they aren't living too ordinary lives, instead, they focus on the black arts and worshiping their god. I vision their lives very ascetic and dedicated to their religion. As Stygia turns out to be a theocracy (even though there's also a royal rulers), I would guess they also have administrative duties.

Probably the ordinary Stygians both fear and abhor the priests, but probably they are too afraid to actually hate them. Actually they may greatly honour priests --or at least the cult of Set, as in The Hour of the Dragon-- as they seem to be really brainwashed into Setitism (or whatever you call it). My very uneducated guess is, that children may be sent to the temples to serve as priests, just like in the Middle Ages monks often came from poor families that wanted to assure bread for their children. Starting as novices, they may be able rise to quite high ranks. I find it very improbable that Stygian priests may have any kidn of sexual relationships, so all the priests need to be initiates.

As for the remnants of the elder race, could it be that the Stygian royal family and other noblemen are their descendants? Naturally there would be a lot of Lemurian blood in their veins, but at least they could trace their ancestry to the original inhabitants of Stygia. Perhaps they also serve as the high-priests of Set, honoured as kind of Set's deputies. This is purely a speculation, of course.

Edited by MiihkaliT, 30 September 2012 - 09:51 PM.

[thatericn]

I interpret these so that Stygian priests are quite heavily separated from the laymen. Perhaps they live inside the temples of Set. I somehow get the impression they aren't living too ordinary lives, instead, they focus on the black arts and worshiping their god. I vision their lives very ascetic and dedicated to their religion. As Stygia turns out to be a theocracy (even though there's also a royal rulers), I would guess they also have administrative duties.

Probably the ordinary Stygians both fear and abhor the priests, but probably they are too afraid to actually hate them. Actually they may greatly honour priests --or at least the cult of Set, as in The Hour of the Dragon-- as they seem to be really brainwashed into Setitism (or whatever you call it). My very uneducated guess is, that children may be sent to the temples to serve as priests, just like in the Middle Ages monks often came from poor families that wanted to assure bread for their children. Starting as novices, they may be able rise to quite high ranks. I find it very improbable that Stygian priests may have any kidn of sexual relationships, so all the priests need to be initiates.

As for the remnants of the elder race, could it be that the Stygian royal family and other noblemen are their descendants? Naturally there would be a lot of Lemurian blood in their veins, but at least they could trace their ancestry to the original inhabitants of Stygia. Perhaps they also serve as the high-priests of Set, honoured as kind of Set's deputies. This is purely a speculation, of course.

I'd offer some alternatives. REH might have taken the human-sacrificing Central American civilizations as a partial inspiration (note the somewhat Aztec names in "Red Nails," etc). If that is the case, priests and kings are not separate castes, as we are so familiar with in Indo-European cultures. In a Mesoamerican style of theocracy, the king IS the high priest, and his personal blood sacrifice is part of the whole sanguine ritual structure....

I would think it likely that the royal/priestly caste is served by a slightly privileged servant and military strata, that act as trusted servants and enforcers. They would live somewhat safely, and get some perks and goodies: adequate pay, chances to grab up an occasional slave or two, access to potions and pharmaceuticals, etc... The royal/priestly/sorcerous ruling caste likely would keep a close eye on bloodlines (like the Egyptians did) and a choice of the lower caste population to fill their harems.... Everyone would have their place, and everyone would know it. The Temple of Set probably has numerous luxurious sections and "apartments" for the powerful elite.

Lemurian bloodlines would be unlikely. Remember, the slavemasters who lorded over the Lemurians are the ones who fled west. REH probably saw the Stygian mix as being a mix of the pseudo-Asiatic refugee tyrants from the east, and the native (African) pre-Stygians.

From what he already communicated, if REH had ever revisited the inner workings of the evil Stygian empire, the reader would see a capricious, deadly machine - not decadent enough to fall apart, but efficient enough to remain a terrifying presence on the Earth for millennia...

[Ironhand]

I don't think priests and kings were the same; we know that the king of Stygia was named Ctesphon, during Thoth-Amon's career. Of course, it is possible that priests and kings were of the same caste. But my impression was that TA's preferred position was the power behind a figurehead's throne.

I hypothesize that Stygia was one of three superpowers in the Hyborian Age, along with Aquilonia and Turan. Stygia probably pursued its aims with lots of intrigue, as well as military adventurism. But its rule was so odious that its colonies kept seceding. Perhaps contacts with neighboring cultures persuaded Stygian colonists that they would be better off without the priests.

Edited by Ironhand, 01 October 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[thatericn]

I don't think priests and kings were the same; we know that the king of Stygia was named Ctesphon, during Thoth-Amon's career. Of course, it is possible that priests and kings were of the same caste. But my impression was that TA's preferred position was the power behind a figurehead's throne.

I hypothesize that Stygia was one of three superpowers in the Hyborian Age, along with Aquilonia and Turan. Stygia probably pursued its aims with lots of intrigue, as well as military adventurism. But its rule was so odious that its colonies kept seceding. Perhaps contacts with neighboring cultures persuaded Stygian colonists that they would be better off without the priests.

Regarding Ctesphon, that name quite obviously harks to Ctesiphon, the Persian/Parthian capital city near Baghdad - which was the later name of Seleucia, which was the heir/resettled replacement of Babylon, another ancient superpower, with a lot of villainous baggage on it's reputation.

REH was likely loudly hinting to the reader by using a name based off a town so closely identified with a classical/historical name so strongly identified in Western culture (and assumed by REH, the reader's culture) as a legendary bad guy.

One might guess, that conquered foreign populations, not brought up from birth to assume Stygian-style repression as the natural order would be far less inclined to go with the flow when it came to giving up sacrificial victims, etc. Also, the most competent sorcerous priests and bureaucrats would likely prefer staying near the center of power and the center of powerful, PRACTICAL wizardry, with all its glamour and benefits (though certainly bad karma). Thus, failures, wannabe's and exiles would likely be the major source of Stygian colonial leadership.

[MiihkaliT]

Lemurian bloodlines would be unlikely. Remember, the slavemasters who lorded over the Lemurians are the ones who fled west. REH probably saw the Stygian mix as being a mix of the pseudo-Asiatic refugee tyrants from the east, and the native (African) pre-Stygians.

You are right, my bad here. With the 'Lemurians', I meant the slavemasters who were driven to Stygia from the East by the Lemurians.

As for the priests and the royal family, I have imagined them to have continuously ongoing struggle for power--the priests have the actual administrative power, but on the other hand, the citizens view the royals as the legal rulers through a tradition of thousands of years.

Edited by MiihkaliT, 01 October 2012 - 11:02 AM.

[thatericn]

As for the priests and the royal family, I have imagined them to have continuously ongoing struggle for power--the priests have the actual administrative power, but on the other hand, the citizens view the royals as the legal rulers through a tradition of thousands of years.

Certainly - I can imagine at times it would remind us of Mad Magazine's "Spy vs. Spy."

Spell - Counterspell. Knife in the back. Poison in food. Scorpion in the bed. Snake in the closet. Incriminating documents. On and on...

[LordYam]

stygia was said to be stagnant though, as a society, and still pissed at loosing Shem and other lands once under their hold. and i know the marvel pastiches aren't quite howard, but in at least one story the wizards try to one up each other, and one tries to gain favor over thoth by giving Ctesphon a powerful gift (the sword that conquers all). Thoth flat out states that Ctesphon is the one who elevates him. I may be pushing it, but did Ctesphon wield any significant power (or at the very least enough power that the wizards would have to pretend to like him to sooth his ego.)

[Konorg]

Sorry it's taken me so long to repy back but after reading the posts I have my work cut out for me.

[LordYam]

How would the stygian priesthood be set up? I mean there was probably always some wizard who held sway, but who directly is underneath

[deuce]

Unless it's in the REH stories with Conan as King, I don't think REH actually wrote much about the religion of Set. Maybe there's a snippet here and a tidbit there. Even in the pastiches, I don't remember reading too much about it.

I think the path is open to just make it up as you think it should be.

Actually, readers get a POV/"close up and personal" view of the Setite religion as practiced in Conan's time in The Hour of the Dragon (the first Conan I ever read, BTW).

So, no, REH lays it out explicitly. We get to find out about the Stygian warrior caste, the priestly caste and the subjugated masses of Stygia. There is very little "mystery" regarding the social structure of Stygia.

I disagree with deuce's advice above, too. I own, but have not yet read, The Book of Thoth. If I liked the book, though, and it suited my RPG needs, I use the information in it in a heartbeat--especially since there is little official information on the priesthood of Set.

Until I lost almost all my books and comics in a flood, I owned the individual issues of the "BoT". The thing is, I read them. Busiek (I'll say this again) violates/contradicts almost everything REH wrote about Stygia and the Setite religion during the time of Conan. PERIOD. If anyone would like to argue the point, feel free to argue about it here (ie, not on this thread):

http://www.conan.com...ic=949&hl=thoth

IMO, it would be hard to find a pastiche about Stygia that contradicts Robert E. Howard more than The Book of Thoth.

Meanwhile, the title of this thread has "REH" in it.