18 replies to this topic

[Krieghetzer]

I read this recently.. awsome story... only I can tell it was adapted into a Conan story after it was written as an Injun story....

[PaulMc]

I read this recently.. awsome story... only I can tell it was adapted into a Conan story after it was written as an Injun story....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I used to think that too, but from what I've read, it turns out that Howard did not convert an old frontier story. He consciously decided to try out Conan in a "Fenimore Cooper" type milieu. "Black Stranger" and "Beyond the Black River" were the results.

[korak]

However, he did turn it into an Indian historical story after it was rejected by Weird Tales-- he turned Conan into Black Vulmea.

[TroceroQuijas]

I remember first reading this story years ago in 8th grade. I was consumed. Of course it was the Treasure of Tranicos version. When I read the original, I noticed how shabby DeCamp slapped his ending together. To be the prelude to king Conan. It goes completely out the window now with the new chronology.

[Krieghetzer]

However, he did turn it into an Indian historical story after it was rejected by Weird Tales-- he turned Conan into Black Vulmea.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Black Vulmea's Revenge was a great story... you can tell it was originally a conan story. Describing him as catlike. However, when reading it, I noticed the then and there that Conan was of course racist. Always had speculation and came to the conclusion, but this story made the point.

[daknight]

Was Conan "racist" or more accurately was he something else like "xenophobic" or "predisposed to a garrison mentality"?

[Taranaich]

Was Conan "racist" or more accurately was he something else like "xenophobic" or "predisposed to a garrison mentality"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh goodie, time to crack open that can of worms!

Generally, I think Howard was a product of his time. In the 1930's, eugenics was treated as a valid science, that being the same "science" that was used by the Nazis to exterminate all the semites, gypsies, blacks, and other ethnic minorities that threatened the "purity" of their master race.

Howard was ultimately rational and intelligent, but very poorly informed by the very poor "science" of the time. Basically, the 1930's were a racist time: people weren't racist because they "hated" blacks or jews or whoever, but because the culture at the time deemed them as inferior in a matter-of-fact way, not in the current "evil conspiracy of the Jews" way. If you went against the science of the time then you're viewed as unscientific, even if the science itself is warped and flawed.

Howard did indeed say some really stupid things back then (like how he knew what a black person burning smelled like) but like most rational people, I think it's more due to the science available. Not to excuse Howard, I just think that he deserves some credit for not being as overtly racist as other authors, including his own idol Jack London.

Edited by Taranaich, 17 January 2006 - 10:02 PM.

[raggedyman]

Just finished "The Black Stranger". What a kick-ass story! Maybe it should be renamed Conan and the pirates. Loved the way everybody was trying to stab each other in the back and just how ruthless Conan can be. And finally we have that big battle scene against the picts at the end. On the raggedy scale I give this story 4 1/2 stars out of 5. By the way didn't De Camp put Thoth - Amen in this story when he changed it to "The Treasure Of Trancicos"?

[daknight]

Was Conan "racist" or more accurately was he something else like "xenophobic" or "predisposed to a garrison mentality"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh goodie, time to crack open that can of worms!

Generally, I think Howard was a product of his time. In the 1930's, eugenics was treated as a valid science, that being the same "science" that was used by the Nazis to exterminate all the semites, gypsies, blacks, and other ethnic minorities that threatened the "purity" of their master race.

Howard was ultimately rational and intelligent, but very poorly informed by the very poor "science" of the time. Basically, the 1930's were a racist time: people weren't racist because they "hated" blacks or jews or whoever, but because the culture at the time deemed them as inferior in a matter-of-fact way, not in the current "evil conspiracy of the Jews" way. If you went against the science of the time then you're viewed as unscientific, even if the science itself is warped and flawed.

Howard did indeed say some really stupid things back then (like how he knew what a black person burning smelled like) but like most rational people, I think it's more due to the science available. Not to excuse Howard, I just think that he deserves some credit for not being as overtly racist as other authors, including his own idol Jack London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, that was a pretty good reply. Ironically enough, it wasn't the Nazis that came up with the eugenics, but the British. And I think that it happened around the time of the Boer war. Haven't read enough London myself to see that, but a lot that I have read about him would go with your statement.

[daknight]

Just finished "The Black Stranger". What a kick-ass story! Maybe it should be renamed Conan and the pirates. Loved the way everybody was trying to stab each other in the back and just how ruthless Conan can be. And finally we have that big battle scene against the picts at the end. On the raggedy scale I give this story 4 1/2 stars out of 5. By the way didn't  De Camp put Thoth - Amen in this story when he changed it to "The Treasure Of Trancicos"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes he did.

[Jason A.]

This is one of the final Conan tales collected in "The Conquering Sword of Conan" by Del Rey. Alas I don't want the REH Conan well to dry up, so I have put off finishing this anthology for quite a while. I caved in recently and decided to read "The Black Stranger".

One of the cool things about this is that it's pretty much a direct sequel to "Beyond the Black River", where Conan is now in the thick of the frontier being pursued by Picts in the aftermath of the Thunder River incident. The other thing I like about it is the different sides that Conan has to play against each other. This story has a little bit of everything, even some weird magical elements that REH is one of the best at.

This story really captured what Conan is all about to me. He's not a brainless brute hacking down anyone that stands in his way, he's street smart and calculating. This is a well travelled Conan who has learned a great deal, but in contrast still adheres to his primal instincts in regards to wood craft and loyalty (not allowing "his people" to fall victim to the Picts). He's the perfect blend of intellect and strength, an ubermensch. True his plan doesn't go exactly the way he imagined, but if the Count's second in command hasn't made for the treasure room first he would have been even more in the driver's seat than he was.

The supporting cast around him in this story was also top notch. From the Count who sailed to the frontier in hopes of avoiding the Black Stranger, to the two rival Bucanneers after the treasure (and the other's throat). I also thought that these were two of the more stronger females characters that Howard has put in a Conan story. They aren't Belit by any means, but they both were more than the typical damsel in distress that showed up in the earlier volumes. The young girl had a cool psychic thing going and the older one had some fire in her.

The way the Black Stranger went down was pretty much par for the course as far as Howard's creature deaths go. Would have liked to see him have a little bit more involved death scenes for the main antagonists. Somehow the silver and fire combo didn't do this guy justice.

Overall this is one of the better mid tier Conan stories I have read. It's not as good as Tower of the Elephant or Queen of the Black Coast, but it's not Jewels of Gwahalur either.

[Taranaich]

I agree, Jason. I'd actually put "The Black Stranger" on the top tier of Conan stories (If we assume, say, seven for the top, seven for the middle, seven for the mediocre) simply because of the desperate flight from the Picts, the dark menace of the cave of Tranicos, the sneaky maneuvering Conan engages in, the haunting horror of Valenso, the mysterious Tina, and the setting itself. It is a lot like a frontier/pirate story, but it works beautifully in the Hyborian Age, in my opinion.

The only thing that bothers me is the rocket signal. That really confuzzles me.

Another thing regarding Conan's "racism": when Conan says that he's only going to save the pirates "because of the colour of their skin" that isn't necessarily due to some sense of racial unity, but because they're in hostile territory. If the Picts catch you in their land, and you aren't a Pict, then you're a dead man at best, and the victim of an unholy shamanistic ritual at worst. Conan knows that the pirates don't stand a chance, but he wouldn't even leave his worst enemy at the hands of the Picts. He knows what the Picts will do to them.

Let's put it this way: if Conan was an American GI, the pirates were Jews, and they were in the middle of Nazi Germany, would Conan be racist in saying "I'll save you, but only because of your race"? No, he wouldn't: he's being pragmatic and realistic, because he knows what happens to people of a particular ethnicity in a particular hostile territory. In the Pictish Wilderness, "white people" (which is to say non-Picts) may well suffer a fate worse than death. Saving people because of their ethnicity thus speaks more of Conan's sense of morality in this story than it does of his "racism."

[drush9999]

The Black Stranger is firmly in my top 5 Conan stories, I like it more than say Beyond the Black River and Red Nails which others rate more highly. I like there's a lot of intrigue and mystery in this one. It was a real shame it wasn't available unedited until over 50 years after REH's death.

[Ironhand]

Another thing regarding Conan's "racism": when Conan says that he's only going to save the pirates "because of the colour of their skin" that isn't necessarily due to some sense of racial unity, but because they're in hostile territory. If the Picts catch you in their land, and you aren't a Pict, then you're a dead man at best, and the victim of an unholy shamanistic ritual at worst. Conan knows that the pirates don't stand a chance, but he wouldn't even leave his worst enemy at the hands of the Picts. He knows what the Picts will do to them.

Let's put it this way: if Conan was an American GI, the pirates were Jews, and they were in the middle of Nazi Germany, would Conan be racist in saying "I'll save you, but only because of your race"? No, he wouldn't: he's being pragmatic and realistic, because he knows what happens to people of a particular ethnicity in a particular hostile territory. In the Pictish Wilderness, "white people" (which is to say non-Picts) may well suffer a fate worse than death. Saving people because of their ethnicity thus speaks more of Conan's sense of morality in this story than it does of his "racism."

I think this is simply a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Picts are hereditary enemies of Cimmerians, "the enemy of his blood". Conan will almost automatically take the side of anybody who is fighting Picts, or victimized by them. For me the paradoxical thing is that of all people, the Picts are the people that Conan understands best, and Conan understands Picts better than anybody else does, because they are most like Cimmerians. It's almost like an extremely vindictive family quarrel.

[Taranaich]

Pretty much, yeah.

[duaneshadow]

By today's standards he was undoubtedly racist ('swamp ******s' )

by the standards of his day and his context: it was barely an issue

[Trond]

I think this is simply a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Picts are hereditary enemies of Cimmerians, "the enemy of his blood". Conan will almost automatically take the side of anybody who is fighting Picts, or victimized by them. For me the paradoxical thing is that of all people, the Picts are the people that Conan understands best, and Conan understands Picts better than anybody else does, because they are most like Cimmerians. It's almost like an extremely vindictive family quarrel.

And this is actually what happened to many tribes and nations throughout history. Some people might wonder why the North American indians did not unite against the Europeans. The answer is simple; because many of them hated each other. In Mexico, the Aztecs were generally hated by everybody else, so the conquistadores had no problems in finding allies. Some call it "divide and conquer", which certainly happened, but in many cases they were already divided and at war before the arrival of outsiders. Also, sometimes people are less likely to forgive an insult from someone who is similar to themselves ("they should have known better").

[Ironhand]

I think this is simply a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Picts are hereditary enemies of Cimmerians, "the enemy of his blood". Conan will almost automatically take the side of anybody who is fighting Picts, or victimized by them. For me the paradoxical thing is that of all people, the Picts are the people that Conan understands best, and Conan understands Picts better than anybody else does, because they are most like Cimmerians. It's almost like an extremely vindictive family quarrel.

And this is actually what happened to many tribes and nations throughout history. Some people might wonder why the North American indians did not unite against the Europeans. The answer is simple; because many of them hated each other. In Mexico, the Aztecs were generally hated by everybody else, so the conquistadores had no problems in finding allies. Some call it "divide and conquer", which certainly happened, but in many cases they were already divided and at war before the arrival of outsiders. Also, sometimes people are less likely to forgive an insult from someone who is similar to themselves ("they should have known better").

Yes. If asked, Conan could probably give you a long list of uncles, aunts, cousins, and friends who had been killed or otherwise wronged by Picts. He probably wouldn't live long enough to avenge all those wrongs. Never mind that any random Pict could provide an equally long list of Cimmerian "atrocities". Bloodfeuds are like that.

Edited by Ironhand, 30 October 2010 - 07:57 AM.

[GreenGaul]

I rank this one 5 out of 20 (with 1 being best).

Rip-roaring adventure with interesting characters, plots and counter-plots, a evocative setting, and a mysterious demon. All in Howard's vibrant language.

Any one else reminded of Rip Van Winkle?