NOTE TO MODERATORS: Not sure if this should go in 'Robert E Howard' or 'Howard's Other Literary Creations' sub-forums. Move as you see fit.
Which Howard writings seem to be the most divisive, amongst REH readers, as to their merits?
I would nominate 'The Frost Giants Daughter' and 'The Mirrors of Tuzun Thune' as stories to which readers are either distinctly warm or cool.
Most Divisive REH Writings
Started by guilalah, Sep 09 2012 07:23 PM
6 replies to this topic
#2
Ascalante
-
- Members
-
- 22 posts
Spear Carrier
- Gender:Male
- Location:Boston, MA
Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:26 PM
Xuthal of the Dusk
I really like this story and have read it multiple times, but I have noticed some strongly differing opinions about it. It is quite different with a very moody and dreamy theme to it (too much Black Lotus?
) and some folks have mentioned Natala is too weak as a female character (do all female characters have to be strong?). I like it because it has such an exotic, mystical, fantasy feeling to it.
The Frost Giants Daughter
I think highly of this story. I am not sure what the naysayers have to say about this one, except it possibly being to short? It's short and sweet for me. Gets the job done.
The Vale of the Lost Women
With such a great title, I was very disappointed with this story and was one of the worst Conan stories in my opinion. I'll have to read it again to conjure more details about it, but it doesn't seem to be ranked very highly among Conan stories. Anyone care to defend this one?
I really like this story and have read it multiple times, but I have noticed some strongly differing opinions about it. It is quite different with a very moody and dreamy theme to it (too much Black Lotus?
) and some folks have mentioned Natala is too weak as a female character (do all female characters have to be strong?). I like it because it has such an exotic, mystical, fantasy feeling to it. The Frost Giants Daughter
I think highly of this story. I am not sure what the naysayers have to say about this one, except it possibly being to short? It's short and sweet for me. Gets the job done.
The Vale of the Lost Women
With such a great title, I was very disappointed with this story and was one of the worst Conan stories in my opinion. I'll have to read it again to conjure more details about it, but it doesn't seem to be ranked very highly among Conan stories. Anyone care to defend this one?
#3
Taranaich
-
- Members
-
- 3,925 posts
Metal Barbarian Dinosaur
- Gender:Male
- Location:The Bleak Moors of Scotland
Posted 10 September 2012 - 01:38 AM
VERY interesting idea for a topic, one I'd been considering for a while.
I think my issue is rather simple: there are only three characters, excluding the semi-character Thog, who's more a force of nature than anything else. When you have so few characters, either they have to be really strong, or the story has to be really short. Xuthal isn't exactly long, so what we have is Conan, a somewhat intriguing villain, and an extremely helpless girl who can't help but get in the way all the time. I can't see the story being much shorter given the richness of Xuthal as a location, so I would've either added more characters, or developed Thalis & Natala a bit more.
Shortness seems the likely one to me, it's only 9 pages. I think it's a really excellent tale
Concurrent with the distinctly unpleasant connotations the story has in the light of 21st century progress, it's easy to consider it one of the worst of the Conan stories. It's a shame, as the ideas Howard appeared to be working with are really strong.
First, getting right down to the core of the narrative, this is a story about Conan having a revelation about how far he's fallen in his life, and how it took a woman who's just as out-of-place in his current predicament as he is for him to realise it. It's also a story about a woman who finds herself in a desperate situation, little knowing how much more terrible the future might be for her, who nonetheless takes the initiative. The comparison to the Cynthia Ann Parker story is particularly telling: once you realise what Howard was going for, the story has a depth and complexity that the details obfuscate: this is a story about loss of identity, and dealing with that loss. Secondly, the idea of the Vale is just delightfully weird and menacing, not to mention playing with the idea of women escaping from male dominance only to find something even worse. You could argue something about the old idea of women being their own worst enemy and whatnot, but it's more the visual and mystery of the circumstances that appeal to me. It's a very fey, eldritch location that reminded me a little of "Black God's Kiss," which is not a bad thing.
Unfortunately, Howard didn't do anything further with the story, but it's important to remember that he never submitted it for publication, nor is there any suggestion he intended to do so. Evidently he himself didn't think it made the cut, and chose to abandon it rather than develop it further.
Anyway, here are some of mine:
A Witch Shall Be Born: I've seen people who love the story, and people who hate it. Some think it's a decidedly mediocre Conan story, and some, like John Clute, think of it as one of Howard's finest tales. I place it in the same rough group as "Xuthal": a really cool idea that Howard just doesn't quite hammer down, either through decisions strange decisions (Khumbanigash's off-screen demise and Thaug's late appearance and subsequent doom being massive anticlimaxes, the lack of cohesion between the rebel story and Conan, and a fair amount of filler) or omissions (Valerius and Taramis needed more work and pagetime, I really think the story would've benefitted from seeing Conan's healing, and Khumbanigash could've been an awesome physical foil a la Kutamun with more development). As it is, it's a "what could have been" for me.
Spears of Clontarf/The Grey God Passes: mostly because some people prefer the former historical take, others like the fantasy twist. That makes it pretty divisive!
Xuthal of the Dusk
I really like this story and have read it multiple times, but I have noticed some strongly differing opinions about it. It is quite different with a very moody and dreamy theme to it (too much Black Lotus?
I think my issue is rather simple: there are only three characters, excluding the semi-character Thog, who's more a force of nature than anything else. When you have so few characters, either they have to be really strong, or the story has to be really short. Xuthal isn't exactly long, so what we have is Conan, a somewhat intriguing villain, and an extremely helpless girl who can't help but get in the way all the time. I can't see the story being much shorter given the richness of Xuthal as a location, so I would've either added more characters, or developed Thalis & Natala a bit more.
The Frost Giants Daughter
I think highly of this story. I am not sure what the naysayers have to say about this one, except it possibly being to short? It's short and sweet for me. Gets the job done.
Shortness seems the likely one to me, it's only 9 pages. I think it's a really excellent tale
The Vale of the Lost Women
With such a great title, I was very disappointed with this story and was one of the worst Conan stories in my opinion. I'll have to read it again to conjure more details about it, but it doesn't seem to be ranked very highly among Conan stories. Anyone care to defend this one?
Concurrent with the distinctly unpleasant connotations the story has in the light of 21st century progress, it's easy to consider it one of the worst of the Conan stories. It's a shame, as the ideas Howard appeared to be working with are really strong.
First, getting right down to the core of the narrative, this is a story about Conan having a revelation about how far he's fallen in his life, and how it took a woman who's just as out-of-place in his current predicament as he is for him to realise it. It's also a story about a woman who finds herself in a desperate situation, little knowing how much more terrible the future might be for her, who nonetheless takes the initiative. The comparison to the Cynthia Ann Parker story is particularly telling: once you realise what Howard was going for, the story has a depth and complexity that the details obfuscate: this is a story about loss of identity, and dealing with that loss. Secondly, the idea of the Vale is just delightfully weird and menacing, not to mention playing with the idea of women escaping from male dominance only to find something even worse. You could argue something about the old idea of women being their own worst enemy and whatnot, but it's more the visual and mystery of the circumstances that appeal to me. It's a very fey, eldritch location that reminded me a little of "Black God's Kiss," which is not a bad thing.
Unfortunately, Howard didn't do anything further with the story, but it's important to remember that he never submitted it for publication, nor is there any suggestion he intended to do so. Evidently he himself didn't think it made the cut, and chose to abandon it rather than develop it further.
Anyway, here are some of mine:
A Witch Shall Be Born: I've seen people who love the story, and people who hate it. Some think it's a decidedly mediocre Conan story, and some, like John Clute, think of it as one of Howard's finest tales. I place it in the same rough group as "Xuthal": a really cool idea that Howard just doesn't quite hammer down, either through decisions strange decisions (Khumbanigash's off-screen demise and Thaug's late appearance and subsequent doom being massive anticlimaxes, the lack of cohesion between the rebel story and Conan, and a fair amount of filler) or omissions (Valerius and Taramis needed more work and pagetime, I really think the story would've benefitted from seeing Conan's healing, and Khumbanigash could've been an awesome physical foil a la Kutamun with more development). As it is, it's a "what could have been" for me.
Spears of Clontarf/The Grey God Passes: mostly because some people prefer the former historical take, others like the fantasy twist. That makes it pretty divisive!
Robert E. Howard, 1906 - 2006
Sword & Sorcery! 
Historical Fiction!
Horror! 
Westerns!
Boxing! 
Conan!
#4
Haemogoblin
-
- Members
-
- 409 posts
Adventurer
- Gender:Male
- Location:Florida
Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:01 AM
That's a great short analysis on "The Vale of Lost Women," Taranaich. It seemed sub-standard to me, but I've never thought about the points you bring up. Probably worth a re-read soon. I need to go through all the stories again anyways.
I second "A Witch Shall Be Born." I fall into the camp of those who love the story, but it certainly doesn't have the universal appeal of "Red Nails" or "Beyond the Black River."
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but the general critical consensus seems to be that Howard's weird detective stories are among his worst. I actually quite enjoyed them, and I think they might be undervalued by REH fans (maybe because they're outside the type of the standard Howardian adventure tale?).
I second "A Witch Shall Be Born." I fall into the camp of those who love the story, but it certainly doesn't have the universal appeal of "Red Nails" or "Beyond the Black River."
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but the general critical consensus seems to be that Howard's weird detective stories are among his worst. I actually quite enjoyed them, and I think they might be undervalued by REH fans (maybe because they're outside the type of the standard Howardian adventure tale?).
He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?- Queen of the Black Coast
#5
godzilladude
-
- Members
-
- 1,184 posts
WarLord
Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:24 PM
Black Canaan makes a lot of people squirm, as it sets up Black v. White, in the US Plus the "N" word throughout. For those raised to NEVER suggest that Blacks and Whites can disagree, or that a black man can be a bad guy, this story just drives them nuts. To them, it is SO racist.
A better statement might be that the story includes some characters that sound racist, which certainly is required for the time and place of the story. Same with To Kill A Mockingbird. And some minor characters are stock stereotypes. But the lead black people, Saul Stark and his witch woman, oh no. Saul is big, strong, smart, motivated, a natural leader, not afraid to fight, and even good looking. Not exactly a stock stereotype of the day.
The Frost Giant's Daughter, oh yes. I remember handing one of the Lancer books to a lady chemist I worked with, and she practically threw it at me after she read just that one story, telling me in no uncertain terms it was a rape fantasy story. Wow. We all bring our own baggage to each story.
A better statement might be that the story includes some characters that sound racist, which certainly is required for the time and place of the story. Same with To Kill A Mockingbird. And some minor characters are stock stereotypes. But the lead black people, Saul Stark and his witch woman, oh no. Saul is big, strong, smart, motivated, a natural leader, not afraid to fight, and even good looking. Not exactly a stock stereotype of the day.
The Frost Giant's Daughter, oh yes. I remember handing one of the Lancer books to a lady chemist I worked with, and she practically threw it at me after she read just that one story, telling me in no uncertain terms it was a rape fantasy story. Wow. We all bring our own baggage to each story.
#6
deuce
-
- Moderators
-
- 11,887 posts
The OG of "Psychotic Maladjustment"
- Gender:Male
- Location:Serpent-haunted SEK, beside the Lake of the Mound
Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:41 AM
How about Robert E. Howard's humorous boxing/western yarns?
Support the Robert E. Howard Foundation. It helps you and Robert E. Howard's legacy.
#7
guilalah
-
- Members
-
- 1,056 posts
WarLord
Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:10 PM
'The Hour of the Dragon.' Some rate this highly because of it's scope, others feel Howard didn't handle the novel form as well as he ahndled stories. (Not saying this was some essential weakness in Howard -- he'd only tried 2 novels, vs a gazillion stories. I do like HOTD, but I also find it a bit less than the sum of its parts. I'm disappointed we hear little about Xaltotun after Conan is imprisoned; also, little about Conan after he recovers the Heart of Ahriman. Also, to me HOTD feels rather 'serial'. But I am VERY GLAD that we have HOTD!).
