So it is said that Mitraism is an Oracular religion. Oracles are people who, through whatever means, serve as a portal through which a god/ess speaks. But the one time we see Mitraism being carried out, there's no oracle there - we're left wondering who spoke, and there's a whole thread on that.
Anyways, do you think it is the norm that there are human oracles in the temples? If so, do you think all Mitran had them? Did all ancient temples have them? I know little of how ancient "temple religions" worked in reality.
Thoughts?
M.
Oracles In Mitraism
Started by Cheomesh, Oct 08 2012 01:27 PM
27 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:53 AM
Of course it varies, but, no. Generally, there weren't friendly, neighborhood oracles. You'd see local shrines and even local temples, but oracles were rarer. There were certain places where oracles could be found though--most famously at Delphi, Cumae, and the Siwah oasis. Interestingly, the oracles were situated in places of natural or geological interest.
In Delphi, for example, the seat of the Pythia (the oracle there, a priestess of Apollo) was situated among the crags of Mt. Parnassus, from which issued vapors which supposedly induced the Pythia into a prophetic state. Her gibberings were then interpreted for those seeking answers from the oracle. There was a temple there, but most other temples of Apollo did not house oracles.
Of course, there's nothing decisive about extrapolating history into Howard's Hyborian Age, but I'd say it's unlikely there were oracles in every temple dedicated to Mitra.
In Delphi, for example, the seat of the Pythia (the oracle there, a priestess of Apollo) was situated among the crags of Mt. Parnassus, from which issued vapors which supposedly induced the Pythia into a prophetic state. Her gibberings were then interpreted for those seeking answers from the oracle. There was a temple there, but most other temples of Apollo did not house oracles.
Of course, there's nothing decisive about extrapolating history into Howard's Hyborian Age, but I'd say it's unlikely there were oracles in every temple dedicated to Mitra.
He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?- Queen of the Black Coast
#3
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:33 PM
Interesting question.
Looking to "average ancient religions" to fill out the Mitran religion might require a grain of salt. For instance, most ancient religions, even early Hinduism, required animal sacrifices. Hyborian Mitraism does not. So without sacrifice as a central practice, how did Mitraists worship?
There are probably several ancient religions that incorporate some sort of oracular divination. I can only think of Taoism off the top of my head.
Every religion has its root in shamanism, and shamanism expressly is an oracular practice. So maybe the more ancient a religion gets, the more divination we see? Dunno.
Looking to "average ancient religions" to fill out the Mitran religion might require a grain of salt. For instance, most ancient religions, even early Hinduism, required animal sacrifices. Hyborian Mitraism does not. So without sacrifice as a central practice, how did Mitraists worship?
There are probably several ancient religions that incorporate some sort of oracular divination. I can only think of Taoism off the top of my head.
Every religion has its root in shamanism, and shamanism expressly is an oracular practice. So maybe the more ancient a religion gets, the more divination we see? Dunno.
#4
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Posted 19 October 2012 - 02:40 PM
I have always had a problem with getting "fantasy ancient" religions to work, as I haven't gotten my hands on any hard sources on how they function. My instinct was always to base them off the Catholic church, which is the only organization I have any (if only passing) knowledge of the inner workings of. Thusly, priests tended to be preachers, there's always a number of deacons or acolytes, there's always a bigger wig that they answer to, etc. People congregate on Holy Day of the Week to offer ceremony, etc. Toss in a dash of D&D and you have healers on staff.
RPG.net had a few guys who informed me that ancient temples where no where near as organized, except possibly (in a round about manner) within major urban settlements (where there's more than one temple) as the RCC I know. Additionally, even medieval churches weren't regularly visited by most, save nobility, who probably had a private priest. Same with ancient temples, and those even less so - medieval churches had mass days a few times a year (where you'd receive communion).
Now, in the middle ages the ORGANIZED church was a huge player, holding vast amounts of land and coming into conflict with secular land holders. They imposed a tax and had the authority to because they were an organized and powerful system. Inter-church cooperation (again, parts of a single whole) increased their power. This seems much less viable when the temples are largely autonomous. At best maybe they have a trust built up and exchanges can happen on their behalf, or missives born between the two can be honored.
M.
RPG.net had a few guys who informed me that ancient temples where no where near as organized, except possibly (in a round about manner) within major urban settlements (where there's more than one temple) as the RCC I know. Additionally, even medieval churches weren't regularly visited by most, save nobility, who probably had a private priest. Same with ancient temples, and those even less so - medieval churches had mass days a few times a year (where you'd receive communion).
Now, in the middle ages the ORGANIZED church was a huge player, holding vast amounts of land and coming into conflict with secular land holders. They imposed a tax and had the authority to because they were an organized and powerful system. Inter-church cooperation (again, parts of a single whole) increased their power. This seems much less viable when the temples are largely autonomous. At best maybe they have a trust built up and exchanges can happen on their behalf, or missives born between the two can be honored.
M.
#5
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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:44 AM
The RPG.net guys sound right. Ancient religions certainly didn't have the dogma or organized, international clergy of the Church in the Middle Ages. And it's true, most peasants (and even many feudal lords) would not have heard Mass every Sunday. Traveling priests made rounds to perform Mass, sanctify marriages, etc.
But the real issue with modeling ancient-inspired, RPG religions on medieval Catholicism is the huge difference in theological outlook between Christianity (especially its "mature" version in the medieval West) and ancient pagans, for lack of a better term. I'd even argue that early, or maybe just pre-exilic, Judaism is more like the ancient pagan creeds than Christianity. I should add that while a broad view shows this distinction pretty clearly, there are tons of small details that show it's not black and white--there's not a clear break. And I'd like to preface what I'm about to say that the mystery religions (Roman Mithraism was one of these) share characteristics of Christianity, and that the prevailing fashions of ancient religion were not static. Now that I've said all that, I'm going to generalize enough to make anyone with even a passing interest in ancient religions cry.
In ancient religion ritual is paramount. You perform the ritual properly, X god does what he's supposed to. If the effect doesn't happen, you messed up the ritual somehow. There were rituals for everything. They could be very long or very complicated, but they were always very important. The Romans even forgot what/who exactly some rituals were for (those of the Lupercalia being an example). Of course, ritual has its place in Catholicism, and part of that is a holdover of older days, but it's not like it was in, say, Republican Rome.
Outside of the mystery religions, the afterlife wasn't really something most cared about. It was there, sometimes, but, at least in Rome, what really mattered was how your family honored your spirit after you were dead. On special days (and there were a lot of special days) Roman families would gather at their tombs and make libations to deceased family members. If you were unlucky enough not to have family, there were actually organizations (certain collegia) which you could buy into. Your membership would grant you a niche in the group tomb (the columbarium) and the members of the group would continue to perform the necessary rituals to keep your memory alive. You can get an idea just how seriously all this was taken by looking at the tombs lining the Via Appia. They're huge, and they even implore the traveler to stop a moment and pay respects to whom the tomb houses.
A non-theological difference, which may have more direct bearing on RPG games, is the interplay between church and state. The separation really only comes out of the Middle Ages, where the Church is independent of the states in which it is established. And by independent I don't mean it had nothing to do with the kings and princes of medieval Europe, but that it was distinguishable from them. Ancient societies had a much more ambiguous boundary, if there was one at all. There were, of course, the god-kings of Egypt and much of the ancient East. Roman emperors were usually defied soon after death, but since the time of the kings, civil and religious officials had been basically the same. The Persians and Greeks both rolled gods and politics together, too.
I've mentioned mystery religions, so it's probably good to explain just a bit. They were secret cults, often with orgiastic elements. They stressed a more "modern" religion, with an afterlife and a central god or goddess which promised happiness or other nice things to true believers. They were around for a long time before the emergence of Christianity, but really became widely popular around the same time Christianity did, perhaps in part because the Roman soldiers, among whom the cults were often most popular, went all over the Roman world. Interestingly, many soldiers were Christians at the time of Constantine's famous conversion at the Milvian Bridge. Roman Mithraism (as distinguished from the earlier, more authentically Persian variant), the cults of Sol Invictus and Magna Mater, and Orphism are all examples of mystery religions.
It's kind of hard to judge what Howard's Mithraism would be, since his religion has temples, something more typical of the "mainline" ancient religions.
As another aside, I've always thought it was funny how DnD lumped healing in with clerics (gotta balance that party somehow, right?) since priests and churchmen weren't generally professional healers. There were actual, trained doctors to go to all throughout history. One great example that supports the DnD healer-cleric comes from ancient religion, not from medieval Christianity. The Temple of Asclepius at Epidauros was a healing center with all sorts of crazy rituals. I definitely recommend reading up on it if you're into the healing culture stuff. I can recommend books, if you'd like, but honestly Wikipedia should more than suffice.
---
That ended up being longer than I'd intended. tl;dr- make your campaign religion more "ancient" by emphasizing ritual and making religion a bit more decentralized.
But the real issue with modeling ancient-inspired, RPG religions on medieval Catholicism is the huge difference in theological outlook between Christianity (especially its "mature" version in the medieval West) and ancient pagans, for lack of a better term. I'd even argue that early, or maybe just pre-exilic, Judaism is more like the ancient pagan creeds than Christianity. I should add that while a broad view shows this distinction pretty clearly, there are tons of small details that show it's not black and white--there's not a clear break. And I'd like to preface what I'm about to say that the mystery religions (Roman Mithraism was one of these) share characteristics of Christianity, and that the prevailing fashions of ancient religion were not static. Now that I've said all that, I'm going to generalize enough to make anyone with even a passing interest in ancient religions cry.
In ancient religion ritual is paramount. You perform the ritual properly, X god does what he's supposed to. If the effect doesn't happen, you messed up the ritual somehow. There were rituals for everything. They could be very long or very complicated, but they were always very important. The Romans even forgot what/who exactly some rituals were for (those of the Lupercalia being an example). Of course, ritual has its place in Catholicism, and part of that is a holdover of older days, but it's not like it was in, say, Republican Rome.
Outside of the mystery religions, the afterlife wasn't really something most cared about. It was there, sometimes, but, at least in Rome, what really mattered was how your family honored your spirit after you were dead. On special days (and there were a lot of special days) Roman families would gather at their tombs and make libations to deceased family members. If you were unlucky enough not to have family, there were actually organizations (certain collegia) which you could buy into. Your membership would grant you a niche in the group tomb (the columbarium) and the members of the group would continue to perform the necessary rituals to keep your memory alive. You can get an idea just how seriously all this was taken by looking at the tombs lining the Via Appia. They're huge, and they even implore the traveler to stop a moment and pay respects to whom the tomb houses.
A non-theological difference, which may have more direct bearing on RPG games, is the interplay between church and state. The separation really only comes out of the Middle Ages, where the Church is independent of the states in which it is established. And by independent I don't mean it had nothing to do with the kings and princes of medieval Europe, but that it was distinguishable from them. Ancient societies had a much more ambiguous boundary, if there was one at all. There were, of course, the god-kings of Egypt and much of the ancient East. Roman emperors were usually defied soon after death, but since the time of the kings, civil and religious officials had been basically the same. The Persians and Greeks both rolled gods and politics together, too.
I've mentioned mystery religions, so it's probably good to explain just a bit. They were secret cults, often with orgiastic elements. They stressed a more "modern" religion, with an afterlife and a central god or goddess which promised happiness or other nice things to true believers. They were around for a long time before the emergence of Christianity, but really became widely popular around the same time Christianity did, perhaps in part because the Roman soldiers, among whom the cults were often most popular, went all over the Roman world. Interestingly, many soldiers were Christians at the time of Constantine's famous conversion at the Milvian Bridge. Roman Mithraism (as distinguished from the earlier, more authentically Persian variant), the cults of Sol Invictus and Magna Mater, and Orphism are all examples of mystery religions.
It's kind of hard to judge what Howard's Mithraism would be, since his religion has temples, something more typical of the "mainline" ancient religions.
As another aside, I've always thought it was funny how DnD lumped healing in with clerics (gotta balance that party somehow, right?) since priests and churchmen weren't generally professional healers. There were actual, trained doctors to go to all throughout history. One great example that supports the DnD healer-cleric comes from ancient religion, not from medieval Christianity. The Temple of Asclepius at Epidauros was a healing center with all sorts of crazy rituals. I definitely recommend reading up on it if you're into the healing culture stuff. I can recommend books, if you'd like, but honestly Wikipedia should more than suffice.
---
That ended up being longer than I'd intended. tl;dr- make your campaign religion more "ancient" by emphasizing ritual and making religion a bit more decentralized.
He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?- Queen of the Black Coast
#6
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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:51 AM
According to your description, Mitraism would not be a mystery religion. It would not in any sense be an "underground" religion, since it was the state religion in many of the Hyborian nations.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
#7
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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:01 AM
According to your description, Mitraism would not be a mystery religion. It would not in any sense be an "underground" religion, since it was the state religion in many of the Hyborian nations.
But there is he possibility of there beig small groups who taught a mystery religion version of it.
The aveage civilized man is never fully alive;he is burdened with masses of atrophied tisse and useless matter.Life flickers feebily in him;his senses sre dull and torpid...In devloping his intellect he has sacrificed far more then he realizes."
#8
Ironhand
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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:51 AM
You mean heretics?
According to your description, Mitraism would not be a mystery religion. It would not in any sense be an "underground" religion, since it was the state religion in many of the Hyborian nations.
But there is he possibility of there beig small groups who taught a mystery religion version of it.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
#9
deuce
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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:22 AM
You mean heretics?
According to your description, Mitraism would not be a mystery religion. It would not in any sense be an "underground" religion, since it was the state religion in many of the Hyborian nations.
But there is he possibility of there beig small groups who taught a mystery religion version of it.
It would appear that the followers of Asura were considered "heretics" (to one degree or another) by the priests of Mitra. Conan (having seen "Asuraism" in its native environment) was tolerant of that creed. All in all, REH seems to have been using the Asurans as stand-ins for Medieval Jews in much the same way he used Picts as stand-ins for Eastern Woodland Indians.
Howard stated that the Cimmerians had oracles as well, BTW.
Of course, the whole "Asuran" topic requires a thread of its own.
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#10
deuce
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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:13 AM
So it is said that Mitraism is an Oracular religion. Oracles are people who, through whatever means, serve as a portal through which a god/dess speaks.
It depends a lot on how one defines "oracular". In the last 1500yrs, there have been numerous times that "advice/prophecies" have been delivered in a Christian context without any "intermediary/oracle", especially in the West.
REH is known to have conversed at length with a Catholic priest in San Antonio.
That being a given, why wouldn't he know of The Virgin of Guadelupe or the "miracles" of Lourdes? All I'm saying is that a "permanent oracle" at every "Mitraeum" is by no means assured. Even Haemogoblin's examples from the "Classical" period don't show that.
If you need more "medieval oracles" from Western Europe (REH stated he was a fan of Joan of Arc, BTW), I can surely dig them up.
"Oracles" (however one defines them) were absolutely not the exclusive purview of the "Classical" period.
But the one time we see Mitraism being carried out, there's no oracle there - we're left wondering who spoke
Anyways, do you think it is the norm that there are human oracles in the temples? If so, do you think all Mitran had them? Did all ancient temples have them? I know little of how ancient "temple religions" worked in reality.
Thoughts?
M.
Yasmela heard the same sort of "oracle" as Joan of Arc. "Ancient temples" (and medieval churches) did NOT have "oracles on call", as a general rule (Haemogoblin already noted such). Direct "revelation" was always an option.
Bottom line: your gamers DON'T need a "living oracle" every time they enter a "Mitraeum".
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#11
Cheomesh
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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:36 PM
Lucky for me, the only holy-structure they've had to deal with was a Fortress-Monastery. Now that I've concluded that a Catholic like hierarchy is -not- the purview of this (or any?) REH religion, I've found the use of the word Monastery was probably a bad choice of words.
I think if the players come seeking Wisdom, I'll have the Mitriasts take auguries from flocks of birds or the like. (Do any of you guys have a list of things I can use in addition to birds? That's just the only "Ancient" one I know that doesn't involve blood).
I have also separated physical healing from the temples. If you are legitimately ill, cut up, etc. a temple does not have anyone who can really help you unless by coincidence one of them is a medical doctor. Those who become Doctors (in at least Nemedia, Aquilonia and whatnot) may have a heavy religious bias (especially in Eastern Nemedia), but are not temple priests or acolytes. They may prescribe donations in silver to the temples, fret the waning moon's influence on your cuts, and may write religious words/names of power on your bandages along with their leeches, dietary recommendations and ointments, but aren't "men of the cloth". Less of this pervades in Western Nemedia, where it is more scholastic in nature; still tied up with medieval-esque theories, but relies less on prayer and mystical things.
M.
Spoiler
I think if the players come seeking Wisdom, I'll have the Mitriasts take auguries from flocks of birds or the like. (Do any of you guys have a list of things I can use in addition to birds? That's just the only "Ancient" one I know that doesn't involve blood).
I have also separated physical healing from the temples. If you are legitimately ill, cut up, etc. a temple does not have anyone who can really help you unless by coincidence one of them is a medical doctor. Those who become Doctors (in at least Nemedia, Aquilonia and whatnot) may have a heavy religious bias (especially in Eastern Nemedia), but are not temple priests or acolytes. They may prescribe donations in silver to the temples, fret the waning moon's influence on your cuts, and may write religious words/names of power on your bandages along with their leeches, dietary recommendations and ointments, but aren't "men of the cloth". Less of this pervades in Western Nemedia, where it is more scholastic in nature; still tied up with medieval-esque theories, but relies less on prayer and mystical things.
Spoiler
M.
#12
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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:30 PM
While oracles are popularly connected with ancient cultures, it should be borne in mind that medieval folk also sought divinations and predictions for the future or believed in divine revelations.
These are very good points. Actually, many medieval lords and sovereigns received ''divinatory guidance'' from priests, foretellers and astrologers.
Further, one could mention the finding of the ''Holy Lance'' by the Crusaders outside Antioch, which, while a chicanery, was accepted as a form of divine support. Or a Greek nun's dream of the Virgin Mary and St.Theodore Stratelates (''commander'' or so) before the Byzantine onslaught against Rus-held Silistria. These do not exactly correlate with Yasmela's experience, but show that pre-modern societies, medieval ones included, placed importance on divinatory practices.
As for the Hyborian ''Mitraea'', qualified priests who would act as oracles should not be commonplace. In fact, this could also stand for the temples of Ishtar, Erlik etc.
Yasmela heard the same sort of "oracle" as Joan of Arc. "Ancient temples" (and medieval churches) did NOT have "oracles on call", as a general rule (Haemogoblin already noted such). Direct "revelation" was always an option.
Bottom line: your gamers DON'T need a "living oracle" every time they enter a "Mitraeum".
deuce
These are very good points. Actually, many medieval lords and sovereigns received ''divinatory guidance'' from priests, foretellers and astrologers.
Further, one could mention the finding of the ''Holy Lance'' by the Crusaders outside Antioch, which, while a chicanery, was accepted as a form of divine support. Or a Greek nun's dream of the Virgin Mary and St.Theodore Stratelates (''commander'' or so) before the Byzantine onslaught against Rus-held Silistria. These do not exactly correlate with Yasmela's experience, but show that pre-modern societies, medieval ones included, placed importance on divinatory practices.
As for the Hyborian ''Mitraea'', qualified priests who would act as oracles should not be commonplace. In fact, this could also stand for the temples of Ishtar, Erlik etc.
#13
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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:11 AM
If one would like to have a "Church" state in Hyboria, for roleplaying and such perhaps Ophir would fit?
That would perhaps be an explanation to its supposed wealth and combine the biblical myth of Ophir with a hyborian people, as in the leader of christianity would have a kingdom in and around the former Roman capitol. Perhaps even placed in the center of what was the Acheronian empire if this is the equivalent of the roman empire in the Hyborian world. I don´t like the idea of a pope in Ophir though, but it could still be a theocracy of kind if you like?
I thought the cult of Asura was kind of Hindu-ish. But it was allowed in Nemedia? In that case there is perhaps a schism between Mitraeans in Nemedia and Aquilonia. Or maybe the church of Mitra is nationalized and slightly different in every land.
It seems that Mitra or priests of Mitra can contact people in their dreams and communicate. Like Epimetreus or like in the Black Colossus-tale through a statue. So if Epimetreus was not a spirit, then he must have seen the future way back, and decided then to, in a dream warn Conan about the mummy-baboon Thoth-Amon sent for him, in the Phoenix on the Sword yarn. That is in a way an Oracle?
That would perhaps be an explanation to its supposed wealth and combine the biblical myth of Ophir with a hyborian people, as in the leader of christianity would have a kingdom in and around the former Roman capitol. Perhaps even placed in the center of what was the Acheronian empire if this is the equivalent of the roman empire in the Hyborian world. I don´t like the idea of a pope in Ophir though, but it could still be a theocracy of kind if you like?
I thought the cult of Asura was kind of Hindu-ish. But it was allowed in Nemedia? In that case there is perhaps a schism between Mitraeans in Nemedia and Aquilonia. Or maybe the church of Mitra is nationalized and slightly different in every land.
It seems that Mitra or priests of Mitra can contact people in their dreams and communicate. Like Epimetreus or like in the Black Colossus-tale through a statue. So if Epimetreus was not a spirit, then he must have seen the future way back, and decided then to, in a dream warn Conan about the mummy-baboon Thoth-Amon sent for him, in the Phoenix on the Sword yarn. That is in a way an Oracle?
#14
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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:55 PM
Well, the "organized church" philosophy behind this cult is (primarily) a man's power-grab in the midst of an unstable country - Nemedia, after they've lost to Aquilonia. As he happens to be a priest and an ambitious man, he is using the idea of a structured and standardized church "free of corruption" as a way to attain power.
Another question: If there's no organization between these temples, a la Ancient Religion, how are there "saints"? Who decides on these? Something that completely slipped my mind.
M.
Another question: If there's no organization between these temples, a la Ancient Religion, how are there "saints"? Who decides on these? Something that completely slipped my mind.
M.
#15
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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:50 AM
Lucky for me, the only holy-structure they've had to deal with was a Fortress-Monastery. Now that I've concluded that a Catholic like hierarchy is -not- the purview of this (or any?) REH religion, I've found the use of the word Monastery was probably a bad choice of words.
While I don't think there would be any "militant arm" of Mitraism in Conan's time (as opposed to when Khauran and Khoraja were founded), I don't think that "monasteries" can be ruled out. As I pointed out on The Cimmerian blog, Howard seems to have been quite familiar with the Celtic Church. Kortoso and others have noted that REH's "Mitraism" seems to have been his vision of an "ideal" (para-)monotheistic religion.
Spoiler
Sounds like a cool campaign.
I think if the players come seeking Wisdom, I'll have the Mitriasts take auguries from flocks of birds or the like. (Do any of you guys have a list of things I can use in addition to birds? That's just the only "Ancient" one I know that doesn't involve blood).
I have also separated physical healing from the temples. If you are legitimately ill, cut up, etc. a temple does not have anyone who can really help you unless by coincidence one of them is a medical doctor. Those who become Doctors (in at least Nemedia, Aquilonia and whatnot) may have a heavy religious bias (especially in Eastern Nemedia), but are not temple priests or acolytes. They may prescribe donations in silver to the temples, fret the waning moon's influence on your cuts, and may write religious words/names of power on your bandages along with their leeches, dietary recommendations and ointments, but aren't "men of the cloth". Less of this pervades in Western Nemedia, where it is more scholastic in nature; still tied up with medieval-esque theories, but relies less on prayer and mystical things.
Actually, there were all kinds of auguries not tied to blood sacrifice. Divination from clouds comes to mind (Mitra, being a sun/sky god, would seem to work).
Once again, medical expertise wasn't the purview of the clergy in the Celtic Church. That was overseen by various families in Ireland. IMO, a (heavily modified) version of the Celtic Church would work pretty well as a model for Hyborian Age "Mitraism".
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#16
Ironhand
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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:53 AM
If you're looking for centers of healing, you might consider healing springs, baths, or fountains (like the Fountain of Ninus).
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
#17
constantine
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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:07 PM
Considering the fact that priests of Mitra are trained in many arts and disciplines, it would be reasonable to assume that many of them can act as healers. Of course, some donation might be expected at the local temple. On occasion, there might be a hospital of sorts operating in either with donations/payments or in a context of charity/social-religious solidarity.
Healing springs and baths seem a very good suggestion to me.
However, since the Hyborian civilization is well developed, a group of physicians/leeches not affiliated with the priesthood should be considered a fact. Their presence is actually noted in THotD at the description of the black plague in Nemedia.
On the practices of oracles, one could speculate on the existence of numerous techniques, even original (non historical) ones that do not include blood offerings.
Maybe we should revive the thread on Mitra's religion, since there is much talk on subjects beyond oracles.
Healing springs and baths seem a very good suggestion to me.
However, since the Hyborian civilization is well developed, a group of physicians/leeches not affiliated with the priesthood should be considered a fact. Their presence is actually noted in THotD at the description of the black plague in Nemedia.
On the practices of oracles, one could speculate on the existence of numerous techniques, even original (non historical) ones that do not include blood offerings.
Maybe we should revive the thread on Mitra's religion, since there is much talk on subjects beyond oracles.
#18
Cheomesh
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Posted 18 November 2012 - 02:43 AM
Agreed on the healing springs; I picked the idea up somewhere and implemented at least one (bound to be more) north of where the players are called Brunnen. There was an Oracle there, a la the Delphi one, but she's recently passed. Now people come to her tomb to hear her death echos. No rest for the gifted. None of the players have gotten there yet, though, so it hasn't been given a go.
I'll check that link on Celtic Christianity. Scrolls of Skellos? More like Scrolls of Kellos. (Book of Kells)
M.
I'll check that link on Celtic Christianity. Scrolls of Skellos? More like Scrolls of Kellos. (Book of Kells)
M.
#19
deuce
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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:36 PM
Agreed on the healing springs; I picked the idea up somewhere and implemented at least one (bound to be more) north of where the players are called Brunnen. There was an Oracle there, a la the Delphi one, but she's recently passed. Now people come to her tomb to hear her death echos. No rest for the gifted. None of the players have gotten there yet, though, so it hasn't been given a go.
Definitely go with "holy wells" (which covers a fairly broad variety of water-sources):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_well
I don't always go with wiki, but that looks like a solid article.
Here's one on the holy wells of Ireland, which isle has more such (along with castles) per sq. mile than anywhere on earth:http://www.irishcult.../HolyWells.html
Germanics don't seem to have gone in for such wells as much as the Celts, but they had 'em, nonetheless. There certainly are plenty in Germanic-settled England. Hope's book is a good overview with folklore:http://archive.org/s...00hope_djvu.txt
Of course, there was also Aquae Sulis: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Aquae_Sulis
France proper seems a little short on wells, but Celtic Brittany is swarming with them:http://people.bath.a...ns1/ns1tgh6.htm
Of note is Bourbonne-les-Bains/Aquae Borvonis (n-e France). Originally dedicated to a Gaulish godling (there are possible connections to the sun-god, Belenus as well): http://www.theodora....nelesbains.htm
lInterestingly, Borvonis (ultimately) gave his name to the medicinal beverage known as "Bourbon".
Here's an interesting amateur website: http://www.angelfire.com/de/holywells/
Taylor has PLENTY on wells in Germany (where she's based) and has visited most of the sites personally. She also has some French wells on there.
As that first wiki article notes, there are several wells to be found in Greek and Roman contexts. Also, as one reads through the literature, it becomes obvious that numerous wells were founded AFTER the pagan period, within a Christian milieu.
When one reads through the literature on Indo-European mythology (such as it can be determined), you find numerous references to "holy wells". Celtic legends have the majority, but you find others scattered here and there. Usually, women are associated with those wells. From Boann to Sulis/Minerva and others, you see this connection.
The Hyborians, in the Hyborian Age context, are Howard's "pseudo-Aryans"; stand-ins for later, historical Indo-Europeans. In that light, having holy wells is pretty much a given, IMO.
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I'll check that link on Celtic Christianity. Scrolls of Skellos? More like Scrolls of Kellos. (Book of Kells)
Good one.
I've seen the Book of Kells, by the way, back in 2002 (November 9th, to be exact).That link on Celtic Christianity isn't the be-all/end-all. Scherman's The Flowering of Ireland is pretty solid, as is Morris' The Age of Arthur. Cahill's book is a waste of time. MacManus' The Story of the Irish Race devotes 60+ pages to that period.
Bottom line, REH wrote numerous times about "the burgeoning civilization" that was stillborn as a result of the Viking and Norman invasions.The Celtic Church simply didn't operate according to the "standard medieval" model. It was more decentralized/modular with a greater emphasis on scholarship/scepticism. Just less overbearing and more accommodating to local traditions in general (in other words, more like how the Mitraistic religion is portrayed by REH). Howard obviously saw some good things in it. If Mitraism was his attempt to create an idealized/"better" (para-)monotheistic religion, then I don't think the Celtic Church should be ignored.
Back to healing/medicine...A good article on medicine in medieval Ireland: http://what-when-how...dieval-ireland/
Ignore the top ad crap. As the article notes, medicine in Eire was regulated by the Brehon Laws, which laws predated Saint Patrick and the Celtic Church. It also notes that medical professions seemed to run in families (though "closed" to none). Celtic scholar, Peter Berresford Ellis, agrees, and traces them back to the Irish Druids. I'll admit a bias here, since I've got O'Meara blood. An O'Meara wrote the first medical treatise printed/published in Ireland (all O'Mearas are related, as opposed to say, "Smiths") and an O'Meara was the physician who (apparently) poisoned Napoleon. The O'Mearas seem to have been physicians back into medieval times, if not earlier.
As I believe I've made clear, I don't see Mitraism as "Standard European Medieval Christianity Redux". I think another fruitful source of inspiration is Miller's The Birth of the Hospital in the Byzantine Empire. IMO, the data therein applies better to Corinthia, Koth and Ophir, but it's still highly relevant.
To reiterate, there's a lot to draw from. Christianity in the Middle Ages wasn't monolithic until the very end of the period. Throw in some Mithraic stuff (always keeping REH in mind) and I think you've got a cool and workable system.
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#20
constantine
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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:49 PM
The most evident influence of Celtic Christianity should be the organization of the Mitraist priesthoods in a national basis IMO. Other elements such as the purgatory are inspired from later medieval theology.
I would further suggest that the members of Mitra's clergy and therefore the Oracles, are almost certainly exclusively male, judging from the available data given by REH.
Miller is a good reference. Considering the qualities attributed to the priests of Mitra, plus the high level of cultural development in the Hyborian West, I think that hospital-like institutions would be quite appropriate in Aquilonia and other nearby kingdoms.
I would further suggest that the members of Mitra's clergy and therefore the Oracles, are almost certainly exclusively male, judging from the available data given by REH.
I think another fruitful source of inspiration is Miller's The Birth of the Hospital in the Byzantine Empire. IMO, the data therein applies better to Corinthia, Koth and Ophir, but it's still highly relevant.
Miller is a good reference. Considering the qualities attributed to the priests of Mitra, plus the high level of cultural development in the Hyborian West, I think that hospital-like institutions would be quite appropriate in Aquilonia and other nearby kingdoms.
